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00:13 < Hixie> ok well we now have pdf versions of the spec available
00:13 < Hixie> there are some issues with prince and implied elements, but oh well
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00:31 < MikeSmith> Hixie - the PDF links are currently just in the version at the WHATWG site?
00:39 < Hixie> yeah
00:40 < Hixie> it's enough work getting it working for the whatwg one without worrying about the w3c one too :-)
00:43 < annevk> hopefully this encourages mikeday to make a C version of html5lib
00:45 < annevk> whoa, the PDF is 3.4MB
00:46 < Lachy> 3.4MB seems reasonable given that the HTML version is about 2MB
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02:23 < MikeSmith> PDFs I generate from Prince even for small docs seem to end up around 600KB or more
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05:09 < Hixie> i love the type of comments lachlan has gotten
05:09 < Hixie> they applaud his initiative, and then say he should do something else
05:09 < Hixie> without actually DOING it
05:22 < MikeSmith> heh
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05:23 < MikeSmith> Well, I guess we need to figure out a way to facilitate collaboration on the document
05:23 < MikeSmith> Lachy - you around?
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05:35 < MikeSmith> There is at least one person, Terry Morris, who's asked how he can help out
05:36 < MikeSmith> Maybe for now I should suggest that he submit his edits/changes to the current version
05:37 < MikeSmith> I suppose somebody will suggest soon that we need yet another mailing list for this
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07:30 < hsivonen> Hixie: the pdf looks good. thank you
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07:43 < Hixie> hsivonen: my pleasure. thanks for the help.
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10:40 < Lachy> MikeSmith, yo!
10:42 < MikeSmith> Lachy - just wanted to point out message from Terry Morris offering to help on authors doc
10:42 < MikeSmith> I guess I could set him or anybody else up with ssh/cvs access to the source
10:42 < MikeSmith> but would rather not unless/until
10:43 < MikeSmith> they have actually produced something they want to contribute
10:43 < MikeSmith> anyway, see my reply to him on public-html
10:43 < Lachy> I've been thinking about how to manage people's contributions a bit too
10:44 < MikeSmith> I guess it's not worth spending too much time thinking about until there are some actual contributions from others
10:45 < Lachy> I think the best way would be to set up a wiki page somewhere where people can write their suggestions
10:46 < Lachy> I'd rather not just let anyone be co-editor with CVS access. I think it's worth waiting to find out how good their contributions are first.
10:46 < MikeSmith> aye
10:46 < Lachy> I know nothing about Terry Morris. What's his background, experience, past contributions, etc? So let's test people out on the wiki first
10:48 < MikeSmith> Right. For this kind of stuff I don't know what's the best way to encourage people to contribute.
10:49 < MikeSmith> On code projects, I think it's normal to just ask people to contribute patches
10:50 < MikeSmith> and if/when they've contributed enough to merit it, give them shared write access to the source
10:51 < Lachy> yeah, but code is different.  For articles, there's the issue of writing style, consistency and other measures of quality that can't be tested programmatically
10:51 < MikeSmith> true that
10:52 < Lachy> if there's anyone with actual spec/article/tutorial writing experience who's also had real web development experience, it might be good to make them co-editor
10:53 < MikeSmith> Yeah
10:54 < Lachy> I wanted Roger Johansson to be a co-editor, but he said doesn't have time unfortunately
10:55 < MikeSmith> Anyway, I leave it up to you how you want to manage it. If anybody's not happy with what you decide, we can deal with it then. or they are always free to take initiative on developing an alternative version if they want
10:55 < MikeSmith> bbl, gotta eat dinner
10:55 < Lachy> ok, cya
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12:45 < MikeSmith> Lachy - fwiw, I checked in a makefile to dev.w3.org/html5 and added some makefiles in the html-authors subdir and some other subdirs that include it by reference
12:46 < MikeSmith> so you can just run "make" to build if you want, or "make PUBDATE=2007-11-26" (or whatever) if you want to use a date other than the current one
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12:53 < Lachy> MikeSmith, cool. That won't be at all useful on my windows machine where I do my editing, but it could work if I migrated that to my mac
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12:57 < MikeSmith> Lachy - make works on Windows too I think
13:00 < Philip`> Should work with Cygwin at least
13:01 < MikeSmith> yeah, but I think there's even GNU make that runs under MS-DOS
13:37 < Lachy> I don't like cygwin, I can never get it to work properly and it's too complicated
13:38 < Philip`> Download setup.exe, run, click "next" several times, wait a bit, run "Cygwin shell" from the desktop - works fine for me :-)
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13:50  * Philip` finds a bookseller whose online search mechanism consists of downloading an RTF file listing their stock and pressing Ctrl+F
13:53 < Philip`> ...and the file gets cut off after the "C"s in OO.o
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10:50 < hendry> is there a status page of what/when browser support input types like email, datetime etc?
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11:13 < Lachy> hendry, Opera has support for for those
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11:20 < hendry> Lachy: what about other browsers like gecko, webkit? is there some sort of ETA for those?
11:23 < webben> hendry: A first port of call would be the bugzillas for both I guess.
11:23 < webben> iirc webkit has some sort of type="range" implementation
11:24 < webben> (whether it's actually complete ... e.g. can you adjust the slider with the keyboard?) I don't know
11:27 < hendry> what about support for IE with JS? what's the status with that i wonder
11:32 < Philip`> (WebKit range was integer-only when I last tried, which made my 0->1 slider a bit useless :-( )
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19:32 < Philip`> If I wanted to use GLSL fragment/vertex programs (i.e. an ASCII-only C-like language, for 3D graphics stuff) on the web, what would be a sensible MIME type?
19:33 < Philip`> I'm guessing something like .../x-glsl-fp and .../x-glsl-vp but have no idea if it's text/... or application/... or what and don't know where to find that out
19:33 < Hixie> if it's a plain text format, use text/
19:33 < Hixie> you'll have people complain that you should use application/, but they're just silly
19:34 < Philip`> (The Mozilla canvas3d examples use x-shader/x-vertex and x-shader/v-fragment which look kind of crazy to me)
19:34 < Philip`> (Uh, I meant x-shader/x-fragment)
19:35 < Dashiva> Isn't using an x- on the major part even more frowned upon?
19:36 < Hixie> yes
19:37 < Philip`> Apparently "The source character set used for the OpenGL shading languages is a subset of ASCII." so it's plain text in that sense, though not in the humans-can-read-the-plain-text-and-understand-it-fully sense
19:38 < Hixie> is it meant to be human editable?
19:38 < Philip`> Yes
19:38 < Hixie> then use text/
19:38 < Philip`> Okay - sounds plausible, so I'll try that :-)
19:40  * Philip` tries to work out whether they're called fragment programs or fragment shaders or pixel shaders
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20:50 < Hixie> so the html5 spec is about 500 pages
20:50 < Hixie> and we've been working on it for about 3 years
20:50 < hsivonen> hendry: if you do find good reusable HTML5 presentation demo materials, please let me know. I've agreed to speak about HTML5 on 3th of December
20:50 < Hixie> i've been working on it at about 40 hours a week for that time
20:50 < Hixie> so that's about 12 hours per page
20:50 < Hixie> hsivonen: there's some stuff on hte wiki
20:50 < Hixie> hsivonen: who are you talking to?
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20:52 < hsivonen> Hixie: the event is organized by the student association of the CS dept. at University of Helsinki. The invitations go out to Finnish Unix Users' Group and Finnish Linux Users' Group as well
20:53 < Hixie> nice
20:53 < hsivonen> whoa. I actually type 3th instead of 3rd. scary
20:54 < Hixie> heh
20:55 < Hixie> i didn't even notice
20:55 < Hixie> so the glyphs i'm missing are U+525B U+5FD7 U+6FA4 U+9ED2 U+C11D U+C724 U+CC2C U+FE6A U+FF05
20:55 < Philip`> (Hooray, there's a randomly-coloured 3D monkey head in my web browser)
20:55 < Hixie> if anyone has any fonts i could use that contain those glyphs, please let me know
20:55 < Hixie> so i can add them to the html5 print pipeline
20:55 < Hixie> Philip`: heh
20:56 < hsivonen> hendry blogged about free CJK fonts a while ago
20:57  * Hixie adds h2 { page-break-before: always }
20:57 < Hixie> hsivonen: oo, interesting
20:57 < Hixie> http://natalian.org/archives/2007/05/31/chinese-font/ ?
20:57 < hsivonen> Hixie: yeah. no answer there, though :-(
20:58 < Hixie> :-(
21:05 < Hixie> U+525B U+5FD7 U+6FA4 U+9ED2 U+C11D U+C724 and U+CC2C aren't in my nameslist.txt
21:05  * Hixie goes to update it
21:06 < Lachy> Hey, can someone review an article for me? It's that one for a list apart I've been working on for a while, it's finally finished. Just got to prepare it for publishing
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21:09 < Hixie> Lachy: i'm about to go out for a bit, but feel free to msg me the link and i'll look at it when i get back
21:09 < Lachy> http://lachy.id.au/temp/Developing%20with%20HTML5%20ALA.doc
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21:09 < Hixie> (wtf. i updated both NamesList.txt and Unihan.txt, and I still can't find these characters. are they fictional? or in a special range or something...)
21:09 < Lachy> I'll convert it to HTML shortly
21:11 < Hixie> ah, i see my problem:
21:11 < Hixie> # XXX should also search Unihan and Hangul
21:11 < Hixie> sigh
21:11 < Hixie> ok
21:11 < Hixie> well i'm off to get food, will be back in a bit.
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21:19 < Lachy> Hixie, btw, the images in the article will be modified to switch the article and section elements, based on your earlier feedback about 2 months ago
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21:39 < hendry> Hixie: the irc channel #dejavu has some font experts
21:43 < hendry> dejavu sans doesn't have any CJK support... /usr/share/doc/ttf-dejavu/status.txt.gz sigh
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21:58 < aroben> Lachy: your second figure doesn't show the <div id='content'> element
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22:05 < Lachy> aroben, see my previous comment about the images getting fixed
22:06 < aroben> Lachy: must have missed it, sorry
22:18 < Hixie> Lachy: back, if you have the html version
22:18 < Lachy> sorry, not yet
22:19 < Lachy> can you read word docs?
22:19 < Hixie> sure
22:19 < Lachy> ok, cool
22:21 < Hixie> oh btw (unrelated to your article) it seems the xhtml2wg is going ahead with their repositioning, they now define themselves as an authoring format, not a web format
22:21 < Hixie> as far as i can tell
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22:24 < Lachy> Hixie, where have they said that? on the mailing list?
22:24 < hsivonen> Hixie: where can I read about that?
22:25 < Hixie> (html4all gives me a Bandwidth Limit Exceeded?)
22:25 < Lachy> Hixie, yeah, that happened yesterday. They're aware of it
22:25 < Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/14-xhtml-minutes (search for 'authoring')
22:25 < Hixie> also http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-xhtml-minutes
22:25 < Hixie> and http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes
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22:53 < Philip`> (Oh, the Blender X3D exporter doesn't even work correctly when I make a monkey and a cube, so it's not just my code that's broken)
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23:37 < aroben> Lachy: there's at least one instance of "dependent" where you meant "dependant"
23:40 < aroben> Lachy: the items in the "Benefits of Using the {HTML,XML} Serialisation" are not all parallel constructs
23:40 < aroben> Lachy: some are sentences, some are sentence fragments, etc.
23:40 < aroben> Lachy: it would be nice to make them all the same
23:41 < alp> aroben: 'dependent' is a far more common usage than 'dependant'
23:42 < Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/x3d.png - how totally exciting
23:42 < aroben> alp: hm,  I guess you're right
23:42 < aroben> Lachy: ignore the "depdendent" comment
23:42 < aroben> Philip`: what's that?
23:42 < alp> vlad's 3d canvas stuff?
23:43 < aroben> brb
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23:44 < Philip`> aroben: What alp said
23:44 < Philip`> Oops, too late
23:44 < Philip`> (Rendering X3D content in particular, because I want to get a better idea of why browsers shouldn't implement X3D natively)
23:52 < Hixie> Lachy: the article seems pretty good to me
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23:56 < Philip`> aroben: What alp said
23:56 < aroben> Philip`: neat
23:56 < Philip`> (Rendering X3D content in particular, because I want to get a better idea of why browsers shouldn't implement X3D natively)
23:57 < Lachy> aroben, thanks
23:57 < aroben> Lachy: I like the article
23:57 < aroben> Lachy: and it'll be nice to have it published in such a visible place
23:57 < aroben> (visible to web developers, anyway)
23:59  * Philip` needs to add some lighting and stuff, then add an opera-3d renderer to show how useless opera-3d is :-p
--- Day changed Mon Nov 26 2007
00:00 < othermaciej> Does Mozilla's 3d canvas stuff use OpenGL?
00:01 < Philip`> othermaciej: Yes
00:01 < Philip`> (The API is OpenGL ES, so it's a subset of OpenGL, and it's currently implemented using OpenGL)
00:01 < othermaciej> does that mean you can't alpha-composite things over it? Or does it just turn off hardware acceleration in that case?
00:02 < othermaciej> actually, I guess it must be rendering to a backing store anyway just to draw over normal canvas stuff
00:02 < othermaciej> so likely not fully accelerated all the way to the screen
00:03 < alp> othermaciej: it used to use glitz to render the graphics context to gl as well, iirc. don't know if it still does
00:03 < Lachy> when did Mozilla add 3d canvas?
00:04 < Philip`> othermaciej: I can put a translucent <div> over the 3d canvas and it all looks properly blended
00:04 < Lachy> is it compatible with Opera's 3D canvas?
00:04 < Philip`> Lachy: It's currently just an unreleased extension
00:04 < Lachy> ok
00:04 < othermaciej> I don't think it's compatible
00:04 < Lachy> so looks like we really need to get this standardised soon
00:05 < othermaciej> and I think its existence as an extension predates Opera's API
00:05 < Philip`> It's totally different to Opera's
00:05 < Lachy> Philip`, which one do you think is better from an authoring perspective?
00:05 < othermaciej> my understanding is that Mozilla's is very low-level, pretty close to the actual OpenGL API
00:06 < Philip`> Someone said Opera "implemented 3D Canvas 2-3 years ago" though I don't know how much they've changed since then
00:06 < aroben> http://my.opera.com/timjoh/blog/2007/11/13/taking-the-canvas-to-another-dimension has some of the motivation behind Opera's API
00:07 < Philip`> Lachy: Opera's one is easier to use if you're programming straight to the API and not using any helper libraries, except it barely has any features (e.g. you can't do dynamic lighting) and it would need some redesigning in order to support those features
00:07 < othermaciej> it seems like if you want things like collision detection you might also want an API model with a fully retained scene graph
00:08 < Philip`> I'd prefer to implement high-level scene graph things in JS, and have the browser provide just a low-level rendering API
00:08 < Philip`> (hence me trying to implement X3D in JS to see if that's feasible)
00:09 < othermaciej> is X3D a sensible spec?
00:09 < othermaciej> I don't really know how it works
00:10 < othermaciej> does it natively provide for things like collision detection, or embedding foreign markup as a texture and still being able to hit test it?
00:11 < othermaciej> I gotta reboot
00:11 < Philip`> I've only looked at small bits of X3D, and it seems far from perfect but not totally useless
00:11 < othermaciej> back soon
00:11 < Philip`> It has Collision sensors which can send events to make stuff happen
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00:12 < Philip`> X3D is full of undefined behaviour so I don't think browsers could reasonably implement it
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11:16 < hsivonen> http://www.flickr.com/photos/psd/1805709102
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12:00  * gsnedders stays by the shores of the sea of interoperability
12:00 < gsnedders> (having followed the link to TBL's similar thing)
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12:29 < gsnedders> annevk2: in #whatwg!? what's happened?
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12:40 < hsivonen> Hixie: what Keynote feature did you use to create a timeline?
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13:05  * hsivonen is totally puzzled with Keynote not having an obvious way to turn a CVS table of labels and numbers into a bar chart
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14:22 < hsivonen> where might I find a reference to the W3C decision to leave 4.01 as the last version of HTML and move to XHTML
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14:28 < Dashiva> Not a good reference, but /tr/html leads to XHTML 1.0
14:30 < hsivonen> Dashiva: I meant the meeting and its date when the XML course was decided
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14:45 < zcorpan> hsivonen: last time i searched for it i didn't find anything
14:47 < hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. good to know
14:48 < zcorpan> which was... hmm, perhaps 2 years ago
14:52 < Lachy> hsivonen, it would have been decided around 1998-1999 when work on XHTML began
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15:59 < zcorpan> <title> <textarea> <style> <script> <xmp> <noscript> <iframe> <noembed> <noframes>
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15:59 < zcorpan> are there any others that are [R]CDATA elements?
15:59 < zcorpan> <xml> in ie, i think, but other than that?
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16:04 < zcorpan> i guess <applet> and <object> are pseudo-CDATA in ie too
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17:50 < zcorpan> hsivonen: feature request: it would be useful to be able to group errors by message (perhaps so by default even), because often there are lots of errors of the same type and you usually fix them with a search-and-replace
17:50 < zcorpan> e.g. http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cafefernando.com%2Fturkce%2F
17:51 < zcorpan> s/group/collapse/
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17:56 < zcorpan> (in case that page changes: it contains lots of "<a .../><img/></a>" which results in lots of "Stray / in tag." and "An a start tag seen with already an active a element." messages)
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18:16 < hsivonen> zcorpan: feature request recorded. However, I probably won't be implementing the requested feature any time soon, because Validator.nu doesn't have the concept of "same type" and the whole architecture is designed to assume that such grouping is unwanted
18:17 < hsivonen> so introducing the feature inside Validator.nu wouldn't be much easier than writing a separate front end that called Validator.nu using the Web service API and did the sorting
18:17 < zcorpan> hsivonen: it could be javascript
18:18 < hsivonen> zcorpan: true. I hadn't though of that
18:18 < zcorpan> btw, do you think it would be useful for you if the PFWG produced schemas for XHTML+ARIA?
18:19 < hsivonen> zcorpan: which XHTML?
18:20 < hsivonen> zcorpan: which schema language?
18:20 < zcorpan> not sure
18:20 < hsivonen> I'm probably going to write XHTML5+ARIA in due course
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19:22 < aroben> Lachy: yt?
19:23 < Lachy> y
19:24 < aroben> Lachy: do you think http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Guide/ is an appropriate place for an overview of <canvas>?
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19:24 < aroben> Lachy: should the offline apps overview be merged in as well?
19:26 < Lachy> aroben, if it's something that would be suitable for the Web Dev's Guide to HTML 5, then sure
19:27 < aroben> Lachy: the offline apps overview is certainly something that developers will want to read, though I don't think it's developer-specific
19:28 < Lachy> are you talking about an overview that already exists somewhere?
19:28 < aroben> Lachy: for offline apps, yes
19:29 < Lachy> link?
19:29 < aroben> Lachy: Hixie and anne wrote it
19:29  * aroben finds it
19:29 < Lachy> this thing http://dev.w3.org/html5/offline-webapps/ ?
19:29 < aroben> Lachy: yes
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19:33 < Lachy> it might be suitable, I'll have to think about it. I wasn't intending to look at that stuff for quite a while and will focus on the more stable sections
19:34 < aroben> Lachy: I was thinking about starting to write a <canvas> overview, and so I wanted to figure out if I should just do it within the developer's guide
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19:39 < Philip`> aroben: Do you have ideas of what the overview would include? (I think duplicating the tutorial content that's already on the Mozilla wiki wouldn't be useful, but there are other things that aren't clearly written anywhere yet (as far as I'm aware))
19:40 < hsivonen> is there a vector PDF whatwg logo available?
19:40 < aroben> Philip`: I've only just started thinking about it
19:41 < aroben> Philip`: existing documents I'm aware of are
19:41 < aroben> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Drawing_Graphics_with_Canvas
19:41 < aroben> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Canvas_tutorial
19:41 < aroben> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/AppleApplications/Conceptual/SafariJSProgTopics/Tasks/Canvas.html
19:42 < aroben> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariJSRef/Classes/Canvas.html
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19:45 < Philip`> aroben: Okay - I can't think of any other relevant documents except for scattered pieces in blogs and mailing lists
19:45 < Lachy> aroben, you're welcome to contribute stuff about canvas if you like
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19:46 < Philip`> Oh, there's also some book stuff like http://safari.oreilly.com/0596102437/html_canvas which I can't read
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19:51 < aroben> Lachy: thanks, I guess we can always separate it out if we think that's more appropriate
19:51 < aroben> Lachy: but I'd like to err on the side of fewer documents
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20:37 < Hixie> hsivonen: no special feature, just some shapes
20:40 < hsivonen> Hixie: ok seems tedious. I implemented each year as a slide
20:41  * gsnedders draws a circle around Hixie, and a square around hsivonen 
20:42 < hsivonen> (aside: I'm in awe over the level of suckiness of Keynote's chart tools and even more in awe over the suckiness of Numbers in general when trying to make something to paste to Keynote)
20:48 < Hixie> hsivonen: oh it was _very_ tedious
20:48 < Hixie> hsivonen: but it worked much better (imho) to have it all on one screen
20:48 < Hixie> hsivonen: what version?
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20:51 < hsivonen> Hixie: '08
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20:54 < Hixie> hsivonen: ah. well. compared to v1, believe me, '08 is a dream.
20:54 < Hixie> hsivonen: (also a dream compared to ppt)
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21:10 < hsivonen> hrm. Safari does not print SVG
21:11 < hsivonen> Minefield print SVG but as bitmaps
21:12 < hsivonen> and Opera crashes printing SVG
21:13 < hsivonen> Prince to rescue
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21:18 < othermaciej> Safari doesn't print SVG?
21:18  * othermaciej is mildly surprised
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21:19 < hsivonen> othermaciej: well, at least does not preview or save as PDF
21:21 < othermaciej> does it refuse, or does the PDF come out blank?
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21:21 < hsivonen> othermaciej: comes out blank
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--- Day changed Tue Nov 27 2007
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00:06 < Hixie> sure are a lot of odd things on *.com.com subdomains
00:09 < Hixie> what on earth is http://www2.2ch.net/snow/index.js
00:10 < Hixie> an analytics script, it seems
00:10 < Hixie> how weird
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00:20 < Dashiva> It's also supposed to be shift-jis, for what it matters
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00:22 < MikeSmith> there's a whole lot of weirdness on 2ch.net
00:22 < MikeSmith> if Jorge Luis Borges were still alive he could write a great story about it
00:23 < MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2ch
00:23 < MikeSmith> ni-chaneru
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00:49 < Hixie> MikeSmith: interesting
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01:00  * Hixie stares at http://engine.cqvip.com/content/script/mainfuncation.js is confusion
01:01 < Hixie> what on earth is <script src=poem.js></script> used for
01:04 < Lachy> Hixie, where is poem.js used?
01:04 < gavin> did you mean to give the URL?
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01:06 < Hixie> lachy: i don't know.
01:06 < Hixie> Lachy: google searches suggest arabic bulletin boards.
01:07 < Lachy> ok. Then how is anyone supposed to know what that script is used for without seeing it in context?
01:07 < Hixie> it's often quite easy
01:07 < Hixie> e.g. if i ask what jquery.js is for, everyone knows :-)
01:08 < Lachy> yeah, but that's a popular library with a unique name
01:08 < Hixie> it seems poem.js is also popular
01:08 < Hixie> but i've never heard of it before
01:09 < Lachy> it's also a common word, so maybe people are just calling different scripts the same thing
01:09 < Hixie> possible, but it seems not in this case, at least not based on the google searches i did
01:09 < Hixie> all i could find was people talking about it on arabic bulletin boards
01:10 < Lachy> anyway, I'm having troubles of my own.  Copying and pasting from iWork Pages into Dreamweaver is not as simple and convenient as it is from MS Word
01:10 < Philip`> http://swalfna.com/dewan/poem.js
01:10 < Hixie> Philip`: wow, how do you do that
01:10 < Philip`> and http://www.dardasha.net/images/poem.js etc
01:10 < Philip`> http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22poem.js%22 ;-)
01:11 < Hixie> cunning!
01:11 < Hixie> it does seem to be all the same script
01:12 < Hixie> anyone speak arabic here? :-)
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01:15 < Hixie> Philip`: i don't suppose you have any luck with /en/pages/js/Abstract.js ? :-)
01:16 < Philip`> http://ci.nii.ac.jp/en/pages/js/Abstract.js ?
01:16 < Philip`> (That's all http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=en%2Fpages%2Fjs%2FAbstract.js finds)
01:17 < Hixie> clearly i need to start using msn search and yahoo search more
01:22 < Philip`> Sadly Google is not perfect :-(
01:23 < Hixie> :-)
01:23 < Hixie> indeed not
01:28 < roc> Hixie: smontagu on Mozilla IRC can help you with arabic
01:28 < Hixie> aah, cool
01:28 < roc> ... when he's around
01:28 < roc> he lives in Israel so he's hardly ever awake when I am :-)
01:29 < Hixie> :-)
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10:30 < hsivonen> Lachy: does mediawiki have some kind of extension system? I'm not seeing the same UI on wiki.whatwg.org that I'm seeing in mediawiki docs
10:30 < hsivonen> in particular, I don't see a button for creating a table
10:30 < Lachy> yes, there are extensions available for it
10:31 < Lachy> if you find one you want, I can install it for you
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10:33 < Lachy> hsivonen, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Version lists the extensions installed. Check that page on the other wiki to see what they're using
10:34 < hsivonen> Lachy: ok. I'll just use the syntax manually
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14:38 < Lachy> does anyone know where in the whatwg archives the rationale for dropping <h> is described?
14:42 < zcorpan> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-November/002362.html ?
14:48 < Lachy> thanks.
14:48 < Lachy> I'll post that to public-html later (unless someone else does it)
14:48 < Lachy> I gotta go, cya
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20:44 < Hixie> http://scripts.lycos.com/catman/init.js <-- the first statement in that file is a classic example of cargo-cult programming
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20:47 < hsivonen> Hixie: what's the expected magic?
20:47 < Hixie> that it won't break parsers
20:48 < Hixie> it's from people finding that "</script>" in an inline script breaks parsers
20:48 < Hixie> so people instead of just writing "<\/script>" write "</scr"+"ipt>"
20:49 < Hixie> and in this instance, it has gotten so far as "scr"+"ipt" in an external script
20:49 < hsivonen> ok
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20:50 < hsivonen> I find the use of the $ sign weird, too, but I guess the $ is just a valid identifier character
20:51 < takkaria> hsivonen: PHP influence, I guess
20:51  * Philip` guessed Perl instead
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20:53 < Philip`> I like being able to write "var π = 3.14"
20:54 < Philip`> (Java is nice like that too)
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21:30 < Hixie> interesting
21:30 < Hixie> i'm seeing a lot of dm_client... scripts
21:30 < Hixie> seems to be related to REVENUE SCIENCE
21:30 < Hixie> whatever that is
21:30 < Hixie> lots of people complaining about cookies...
21:31 < Hixie> hmm http://www.revenuescience.com/
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22:11 < jacobolus> Hixie: in <http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml>, <http://www.hut.fi/u/hsivonen/xhtml-the-point> should be changed to <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/xhtml-the-point/>
22:12 < jacobolus> (in case you're still updating that thing)
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22:23 < Hixie> i have several million pages in my survey who have <script src="javascript/quick_review.js"> and yet i can't find anything in any of the three search engines to tell me what that might be about
22:23 < Hixie> jacobolus: k, thanks
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22:35  * Philip` is surprised by how many search engines are just wrappers around Google/Yahoo/Ask
22:37 < Philip`> All the familiar names from last century are now mere shells :-(
22:39 < jacobolus> altavista seems to still exist
22:39 < jacobolus> though half the page is "sponsored" matches
22:40 < jacobolus> oh, i guess they use yahoo!
22:40 < jacobolus> nevermind
22:40 < kingryan> jacobolus: altavista is owned by yahoo and uses most of the same technology
22:41 < jacobolus> i wonder what the point of that is
22:42 < jacobolus> i.e. having a separate page which looks different, but is actually just yahoo
22:43 < Philip`> http://www.alltheweb.com/ is just Yahoo too
22:45 < Philip`> I guess the point is that people who use one search engine will continue using that search engine since it's what they know, and if Yahoo buys that search engine then they don't want to maintain two different technologies but they don't want to lose any of the existing users, so they keep the old branding
22:55 < Hixie> i really can't find anything about this quick_review.js thing
22:55 < Hixie> weird
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22:56 < Philip`> When you're collecting the list of frequently-used scripts, could you make it remember the page where it was found (and do that randomly in 1 in 10^5 occurrences, so you'll not have so much data but will have some pointers to things used a million times)?
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22:57 < Hixie> i'd have to have the list of frequently used scripts first
22:57 < Hixie> which poses a chicken and egg problem
22:58 < Hixie> (otherwise i'd just have to remember every script, which would be insane)
22:58 < kingryan> Hixie: you have an example of this js file?
22:58 < Hixie> no
22:58 < Hixie> that's the problem
23:00 < Philip`> You wouldn't need the list of frequent scripts first - if there's a tiny random chance of remembering the page each time you see a script, then non-frequent scripts will have a very low chance of you ever remembering a page they were on, whereas frequent scripts will have a high chance, so it will all work out sensibly as long as you're not unlucky :-)
23:00 < hsivonen> I wonder how long it will take until google starts searching SVG now that 3 out of the top 4 browsers support it
23:01 < Hixie> Philip`: i can't do anything non-deterministic, since i have to be able to rerun any particular scan of any page with reliably the same results
23:02 < Philip`> if (md5(uri) < 2^128 / 10^5) { remember uri }
23:03 < Hixie> the uri's always the same, that's the problem :-)
23:03 < Hixie> (i could base it on the page's url, i guess, but that still seems somewhat dodgy)
23:04 < Hixie> it'll be easier just to special case the few uris i actually need to look for
23:05 < Philip`> (I was thinking of 'uri' being of the page, so it would occasionally store the (page uri, script uri) pairs, as well as doing the normal counting of all script uri values)
23:06 < Philip`> (and then it would only need a single pass)
23:06 < Hixie> yeah
23:06 < Hixie> it's not a bad idea
23:07 < Philip`> I think it's crazy but maybe it'd work anyway :-)
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23:47 < gsnedders> how awesome.
23:47 < gsnedders> people are already finding my site searching for "http parsing specification"
23:48 < gsnedders> The number of such referrals shows that people really do want such a thing
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23:55 < Hixie> anyone know what crux.js might be for?
23:55 < Hixie> (<script src="js/Crux/crux.js"></script>)
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01:36 < Hixie> <script src="/static/affiliate_base/js/base.js"> anyone?
01:37 < Hixie> or <script src="/j-east/js/form.js"> ?
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01:38 < Lachy> Hixie, base.js could be Dean Edward's base.js script
01:39 < kingryan> Hixie: I take it that your test environment doesn't give you access to the url of the markup source?
01:39 < kingryan> Lachy: I doubt it, given the 'affiliate_base'
01:39 < Hixie> lachy: i found a version with that path here: http://www.booking.com/static/affiliate_base/js/base.js -- my working assumption right now is that it's a booking.com-specific script
01:40 < Lachy> ok
01:40 < Lachy> Hixie, what's your purpose in looking at all of these scripts?
01:40 < Hixie> kingryan: sadly, no, one of the problems with scanning billions of documents is that you have to throw out a lot of data lest you just output terabytes and terabytes of data
01:41 < kingryan> but google has terabytes of storeage to spare, right? :)
01:41 < Hixie> Lachy: twofold; trying to see what libraries are out there and widely used, and trying to see what things are commonly done to get an idea of where we need to work on in the future to make APIs better
01:41  * Lachy believes Google has infinite storage :-)
01:41 < Hixie> it's not quite that easy :-)
01:46 < Hixie> woot, found one j-east/js/form.js: http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/js/form.js
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09:50 < hsivonen> hmm. 66 messages in the www-style @ua thread...
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09:53 < Lachy> hsivonen, was that thread just rehashing all the arguments for adding browser sniffing to css?
09:54 < Lachy> I didn't bother reading it, since it didn't seem like anything new
09:54 < hsivonen> Lachy: yes, but I haven't read it properly.
09:55 < othermaciej> browser sniffing sucks, but not having it also sucks
09:56 < zcorpan> hsivonen: is there something interesting going on in www-style? i'm not subscribed
09:56 < Lachy> zcorpan, not much
09:57 < zcorpan> Lachy: ok
09:57 < othermaciej> dbaron's review of hyatt's CSS transforms / animations proposal was interesting
09:58 < Lfe> othermaciej: url?
09:58 < othermaciej> Lfe: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0223.html
09:59 < Lfe> othermaciej: thanks!
09:59 < othermaciej> (see thread for original proposal)
09:59 < othermaciej> I have a neat demo of that stuff which I should post
09:59 < Lfe> That i've read, havent followed the discussion though.
10:00 < hsivonen> zcorpan: the most interesting things in general are the Apple proposals othermaciej mentioned. (personally, I should follow up to some of the media query validation issues)
10:00 < zcorpan> hsivonen: k
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13:04 < hsivonen> oh great. the data URI ;base64 doesn't appear to allow white space between ; and b
13:05 < hsivonen> yay for consistent parsing
13:25 < OmegaJunior> Are we forcing compliant browsers to accept data URIs? That'd be a first for MSIE.
13:34 < hsivonen> OmegaJunior: I expect not
13:34 < OmegaJunior> Ah, too bad.
13:41 < hsivonen> does anyone remember if Python urllib2 requests gzip compression?
13:42 < OmegaJunior> Sorry no, never worked with it.
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13:42 < hsivonen> apparently, no
13:42 < hsivonen> :-(
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16:17 < zcorpan> oh. firefox doesn't ignore the mime type with xml-stylesheet
16:17 < zcorpan> (but everyone else does)
16:18  * zcorpan changes the spec to make xml-stylesheet honor mime type
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16:22  * zcorpan also finds that safari supports "inline" stylesheets á la <?xml-stylesheet href="#a"?><p xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" id="a">p { background:yellow }</p>
16:22 < zcorpan> s/á/à/
16:23 < zcorpan> wonder if i should require that to work
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16:29 < gsnedders> zcorpan: what about xml:id?
16:31 < zcorpan> nope
16:32 < zcorpan> seems webkit doesn't support xml:id at all
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18:15 < zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5 now features entities
18:16 < anne-mac> I don't think we should add the stuff btw that only WebKit supports
18:16 < anne-mac> The additional complexity has no real use case as far as I can tell
18:17 < zcorpan> ok
18:17 < gsnedders> I expect from the face of it that it's just due to how it is implemented and not intentional
18:18 < anne-mac> The entity stuff doesn't handle EOF
18:18 < zcorpan> EOF will be part of the entity table lookup
18:18 < zcorpan> no?
18:18 < zcorpan> gsnedders: don't think so
18:19 < anne-mac> it's not at all clear what should happen when you hit a parse error
18:19 < zcorpan> doesn't really matter
18:19 < anne-mac> besides marking the pseudo-attribute as being in error
18:20 < zcorpan> the pseudo-attribute will be dropped later on
18:20 < zcorpan> so what the value is doesn't matter
18:21 < zcorpan> but the number of consumed characters matters if you've consumed a " or '
18:21 < anne-mac> you can't consume those per the current algorithm, so I guess you're correct
18:21 < zcorpan> i guess i could deal with ', " and EOF up front to make the spec clearer?
18:22 < zcorpan> right
18:23 < anne-mac> "Otherwise, if the next character is a U+003B SEMICOLON, consume that too." is slightly confusing as it doesn't directly follow from the if statement before
18:23 < zcorpan> also applies to html5, in that case :)
18:23  * zcorpan ripped most off
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18:24 < anne-mac> XSLT processing rules is inside <code>
18:25 < zcorpan> oops
18:25 < anne-mac> "(i.e., had the MIME type text/css)" seems also wrong given the statement before it
18:25 < anne-mac> (i.e., had the MIME type text/plain instead of text/css) would be better
18:26 < anne-mac> the DOM3Views reference should be DOM2Views
18:26 < anne-mac> and Acknowledgements should be spelled Acknowledgments per en-US
18:30 < zcorpan> fixed. thanks
18:32 < zcorpan> it seems that implementations treat &#x01; as a parse error. but i'm not sure it's that important. and other values aren't interoperable, like ffff or 110000
18:33 < zcorpan> so i just aligned with html5
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18:33 < anne-mac> html5 will change methinks
18:34 < zcorpan> to what?
18:34 < anne-mac> not sure, surrogate characters will have to be dealt with somehow, at least
18:34 < zcorpan> oh yep
18:35 < anne-mac> "(in other words, 0-9, A-F, a-f)" is not in the same order as the stuff before it and misses "and"
18:38 < zcorpan> fixed. also in html5
18:39 < zcorpan> a surrogate is not a parse error in firefox
18:39 < zcorpan> though i think i'll leave it for now
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18:44 < zcorpan> a fun feature (not in the spec currently) is that you can point to the file itself and let it act as a style sheet
18:45 < zcorpan> since <!-- is a valid css token you can have your style rules in a comment in the prolog
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18:46 < anne-mac> that's more or less disabled by doing media type checking
18:46 < zcorpan> indeed
18:47 < zcorpan> but it works in webkit and ie
18:47 < zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/test/xml/xml-stylesheet/css/019.xml
18:49 < csarven> thats cool
18:49 < anne-mac> also works in Opera
18:50 < zcorpan> ah yep. though not in 9.2x it seems
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18:51  * anne-mac is playing with Opera 9.5 Beta on MacOS X
18:51 < anne-mac> 9.50, even
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19:05 < anne-mac> btw, if Content-Type is honered you don't have to default to CSS anymore in theory
19:06 < zcorpan> it's only honored after type="" has had it's say
19:06 < anne-mac> that's how it currently works in Firefox?
19:06 < zcorpan> 1) type="" decides if you're gonna do css processing, xslt processing, or ignore the PI altogether
19:06 < zcorpan> 2) the mime type decides if you're gonna apply the resource at all
19:06 < zcorpan> yeah
19:07 < anne-mac> in that case 2) seems like a needless step
19:08 < zcorpan> yeah, but people don't like it when content-type is ignored
19:10 < anne-mac> hmm
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19:37 < zcorpan> one thing i wonder. should it be possible to insert a ProcessingInstruction node to the DOM in html?
19:37 < zcorpan> dom core says no, and firefox and webkit don't allow it
19:38 < zcorpan> but i don't see a good reason for it
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19:39 < zcorpan> or well, i know the reason; that implementations at the time didn't support it declaratively in html
19:40 < zcorpan> but doing different things in the dom based on the htmlness flag sucks
19:40 < zcorpan> anyway. gotta go
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20:12 < hendry> hsivonen: don't quite get this transparent error message on http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.natalian.org%2F
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21:13 < Hixie> wow
21:13 < Hixie> what an interesting precedent was just set
21:14 < Hixie> i look forward to making arbitrary decisions and invoking the secret opinions of anonymous contributors to back me up
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21:16 < Philip`> Like the 10% of emails in your issues list that are private?
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21:17 < Hixie> they're only private because they were sent directly to me (or to a nonpublic list like mozilla-security), if someone said something that disagreed with an e-mail in that list i couldn't let the anonymous hidden mail override the other feedback
21:18 < Hixie> there has to be some accountability
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21:38 < gsnedders> Hixie: what precedent? where?
21:39 < hober> gsnedders: see danc&maciej's exchange, cc'ed to www-archive
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01:52 < Hixie> ruby1: sam?
01:53 < ruby1> yes, can't seem to get rubys at the moment
01:53 < Hixie> hey dude
01:54 < Hixie> i was wondering if you were aware that DanC was using your objections on <canvas> as a reason not to publish html5 as a working draft:
01:54 < Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0416.html
01:54 < Hixie> ...and whether, if that wasn't intentional, you could let the htmlwg know you didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't publish :-)
01:55 < othermaciej> hey ruby1
01:55 < ruby1> I'm torn.  I do believe in release early and often.  And I'm also keenly aware that there are scope issues that need to be resolved sooner than later.
01:55 < ruby1> maciej: why "other"?
01:56 < othermaciej> ruby1: because someone else has "maciej" registered on this server
01:56 -!- ruby1 is now known as rubys
01:57 < rubys> was able to "ghost" rubys.  Much better.
01:58 < rubys> I'll post a response to Dan on the subject tomorrow.
01:58 < othermaciej> rubys: much appreciated
01:59 < Hixie> rubys: cool, thanks
01:59 < Hixie> rubys: i would be interested in hearing why you weren't convinced by the arguments that <canvas> is within the scope of html5 according to the charter, btw (e.g. those maciej wrote in: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tactics-gapi-canvas/results )
02:01 < othermaciej> oh yeah, I would too, if you are indeed not convinced
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02:05 < rubys> I'll provide a more complete answer in my post, but the short version is (1) by that reasoning SVG is in scope, (2) those that are working on the charter don't need to impact the people working on the spec (a point which I realize is partially invalidated by the fact that publishing this draft is on hold), and (3) I think namespaces are reasonable, so I guess that's in too?  #3 is the most important issue.  Charters aren't important when pe
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02:07 < hober> cut off at "when pe", btw
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02:08 < rubys> Charters aren't important when people agree, they are only important when people disagree.
02:09 < Dashiva> Sounds like we might need the entire spec in the charter for this wg then :)
02:10 < hober> I really doubt your #2 -- I suspect rechartering would be a giant time-sink political mess which would necessarily drag everyone into it
02:10 < hober> Agreed on #1 -- I expect <canvas> and SVG to both be included
02:11 < othermaciej> rubys: I do think SVG integration is in scope - I hope you do too
02:12 < othermaciej> rubys: I also think namespaces are in scope (indeed, some mechanism to embed foreign languages is required, though the requirement is not specifically for namespaces)
02:13 < rubys> if we can agree on those things, then they should be mentioned in the charter too.  I'm not hopeful that we can agree on those things yet.
02:14 < othermaciej> rubys: "The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies such as Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents. Whether this occurs through the extensibility mechanism of XML, whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization, and whether it uses the DTD and Schema modularization techniques, is for the HTML WG to determine."
02:14 < othermaciej> rubys: that pretty clearly puts SVG integration and namespaces in scope
02:14 < othermaciej> rubys: (though it does not specifically require either)
02:15 < rubys> maciej: where are you quoting from?
02:15 < othermaciej> rubys: the HTML Working Group charter
02:15 < othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html
02:16 < rubys> oops, I was looking at the wrong page for a moment
02:16 < othermaciej> there are many old versions on the Google
02:17 < rubys> "whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization, ..., is for the HTML WG to determine." <= that's the part that I'm not hopeful on.
02:17 < othermaciej> anyway, I think that charter clause as written is better than an exhaustive and exclusive list of languages to integrate, or a specific requirement to use the namespace syntax
02:17 < rubys> that's a low bar.
02:17 < othermaciej> since it gives us leeway to study the technical issues
02:18 < othermaciej> I think nearly all WG members are in favor of integration of at least some specific languages with some syntax
02:18 < othermaciej> I would guess most are in favor of SVG being one of these
02:18 < othermaciej> and I think that many would favor or at least not object to an open-ended extensibility mechanism, likely compatible with Namespaces in XML
02:19 < othermaciej> I am personally pro all three of those things
02:19 < rubys> An exclusive list or prematurely setting on a specific syntax are both non-starters.  Agreeing to allow other vocabularies -- some that may be known today, and some that may not -- is something that I don't see agreement on.
02:19 < othermaciej> although on the namespace syntax there are many devilish details to work out
02:20 < othermaciej> I think there is some disagreement on whether extensibility needs to be open-ended or just support a fixed list of additional vocabularies
02:20 < othermaciej> but I do not think the charter process is the best way to come to consensus on that point
02:21 < othermaciej> I personally would like to take a stab at proposing an approach to namespaces that can have decent degradation and cross-XML/Classic properties when I have time
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02:21 < rubys> hopefully more people will comment on the proposal that you come up with than have commented on mine.
02:22 < Hixie> it's still on my list of things to look at :-)
02:23 < othermaciej> rubys: I did comment on one of yours at some point
02:23 < othermaciej> I think we may need a couple of different proposals on the table to compare and contrast
02:23 < othermaciej> cause there are tradeoffs here
02:24 < rubys> discussion is good.
02:24 < Hixie> rubys: (sorry, was getting dinner. i didn't really follow how your comments above (1,2,3) lead to you thinking <canvas> wasn't covered by the points in the charter that maciej lists as being ways in which <canvas> is covered, though, fwiw.)
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02:26 < othermaciej> anyway, addressing the foreign syntax issue is one of the few significant feature additions I really want to see
02:26 < othermaciej> (for whatever my opinion's worth)
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02:57 < MikeSmith> Philip` - any chance you might be awake right now?
02:58  * MikeSmith wonders if there might be any canvas interoperability reports around other than Philip`'s
02:59 < MikeSmith> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html
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03:10 < Hixie> http://www.michaelsalamon.com/?p=20 is probably worth bearing in mind
03:10 < Hixie> i'm sure i'm guilty of such problems in html5 :-/
03:10 < Hixie> (like maybe the inline/block stuff, i dunno)
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03:34 < othermaciej> Hixie: style attribute :-)
03:38 < Hixie> yeah well that's an open issue
03:39 < Hixie> i'm still considering having two levels of conformance, one for final production-level code and one for experimentation, one-offs, etc
03:43  * othermaciej points to the picture
03:45 < Hixie> the difference here is that there are real benefits to not using media-specific inline styling
04:03 < othermaciej> delete the word inline and I'll agree
04:04 < othermaciej> add an explanation of how to distinguish media-specific styling from media-independent styling and I'll agree you have a potentially worthwhile conformance requirement
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04:06 < othermaciej> bonus points for explaining how this page would be improved by not using the style attribute: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/
04:09 < othermaciej> (alternatives I have seen include nesting em tags (ugh) and defining a class for each size and just using a less continuous size scale (also kinda ugh)
04:09 < othermaciej> if you add a fine color grade as well, then the class approach becomes untenable
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04:32 < Hixie> othermaciej: why is nesting tags (not necessarily <em>) bad?
04:32 < othermaciej> Hixie: makes the markup fugly, and more painful to generate programatically
04:32 < othermaciej> Hixie: also takes more bandwidth
04:32 < Hixie> but style="" is better in that respect?
04:32 < othermaciej> especially if you go up to, like, 20 levels
04:33 < othermaciej> sure, if I want to make a tagcloud on a log/log scale of frequency I can generate an int scaled to the right range and happily slap it into a style attribute
04:33 < othermaciej> wrapping in 20 <em>s is more unpleasant both to read and write
04:33 < othermaciej> also no good for a color grade
04:34 < Hixie> hmm
04:34 < othermaciej> unless you write totally insane style rules with one per nesting level
04:34 < Hixie> wonder how to address this
04:34 < Hixie> it's totally clear to me that style="" is a terrible way of doing this, but i agree that it may be the better way (for a colour grand, at least)
04:36 < othermaciej> also if it is nonconforming at the DOM level too (not sure if the HTML5 spec defines conforming post-parse DOMs) then you can't do foo.style.left="4px" or whatever
04:36 < othermaciej> since that creates a style attribute if you did not have one
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04:48 < Hixie> i'm not convinced .style.foo = '' is good style either
04:48 < Hixie> but that's another story
04:48 < Hixie> i don't expect to win any battles on that front any time soon
05:08 < markp> http://www.crockford.com/html/
05:09  * markp wanders off mumbling "to the fairest" under his breath
05:35 < MikeSmith> interesting that Doug writes "The only character encoding permitted in [in my proposed version of] HTML 5 is UTF-8." but he has <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> in the source for the doc..
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08:10 < Philip`> MikeSmith: There wasn't much chance, and I went to bed early anyway
08:11 < Philip`> I'm not aware of any other canvas interoperability reports
08:11 < MikeSmith> OK
08:11 < MikeSmith> I had mistakenly thought your report didn't cover Webkit
08:12 < MikeSmith> but Maciej pointed out to me that it did
08:12 < MikeSmith> after he had manually run through all the test cases
08:13 < MikeSmith> with results that turn out to align pretty much with the results in your report
08:13 < MikeSmith> see earlier discussion over on #webkit
08:17 < Philip`> Okay - those results are just hidden in the column with heading "...AppleWebKit..." :-)
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08:22 < MikeSmith> Philip` - yeah, I drank too much breakfast beer this morning before screwing my head back on
08:22 < MikeSmith> feeling better now
08:23 < Philip`> The test report thing at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/reportgenentry.html ought to make it easy to collect results, except it's not really designed to be usable by anyone other than me, so I should probably fix that at some point
08:24 < MikeSmith> Philip` - Maciej said "fwiw it's not unlikey we will implement those two features in the not-too-distant future and also go over the tests and fix our implementation or try to get the spec fixed as appropriate"
08:25 < MikeSmith> so maybe would be worthwhile for them
08:25 < MikeSmith> I dunno
08:25 < MikeSmith> anyway, thanks for making that report
08:25 < othermaciej> Philip`: how do I use it?
08:25 < MikeSmith> it's very useful to have something referenceable to cite
08:26 < othermaciej> oh, I see
08:26 < othermaciej> Philip`: does more than 150 items per page make Safari sad?
08:26 < Philip`> There's a couple of tests that I know are wrong, and haven't got around to re-uploading yet, but otherwise it ought to be about correct
08:27 < Philip`> othermaciej: Yes - when I last looked, WebKit had a hardcoded limit of 200 frames per document
08:27 < othermaciej> oh
08:28 < othermaciej> we could probably relax that now
08:28 < Philip`> (There were several other bugs with Safari (on Windows) when I first did this, hence the comment on the reportgen page about WebKit problems, but I think things worked much better when I last tried it)
08:29 < Philip`> (It's still incredibly painful to run the tests with Opera Mini, though)
08:33  * Philip` should try testing all the browsers on all the platforms to see if they're doing anything funny
08:34 < othermaciej> I'd be curious if there are any Safari discrepancies between Mac and Win
08:34 < othermaciej> I am not sure any of the Linux WebKit ports are ready for prime time though
08:34 < othermaciej> (yet)
08:36 < Philip`> There were significant differences in e.g. radial gradients between Safari 3 on Windows and Safari 3 on OSX 10.4, presumably because that's handled by system libraries instead of by WebKit, so maybe they're the same now on 10.5
08:37 < othermaciej> might be so
08:37 < Philip`> (If I remember correctly, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/2d.gradient.radial.inside3.html was an odd reddish-green shade on Windows, but worked correctly with the same WebKit on 10.4)
08:43 < MikeSmith> Philip` - btw, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml doesn't seem to display as expected in current Webkit nightly
08:51 < Philip`> MikeSmith: Is the game view pushed down below the ugly brown border, or is it something else?
08:51 < othermaciej> it's an odd reddish green in Safari 3 on Mac
08:52 < othermaciej> the view is pushed down
08:52 < othermaciej> I think that bug might be filed in bugs.webkit.org but not sure
08:52 < Philip`> http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13538
08:53 < Philip`> othermaciej: Okay, sounds like that's the same bug I see on Windows, so at least it's consistent when using the latest versions :-)
08:56 < Philip`> Looks quite similar to http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16045
08:58 < othermaciej> sounds like
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09:02 < MikeSmith> Philip` - just the gamed pushed below the border
09:02 < MikeSmith> that's all
09:02 < MikeSmith> otherwise works fine for me
09:03 < MikeSmith> as far as the behavior
09:06 < othermaciej> the game itself plays quite smoothly in Safari
09:11 < Philip`> I think I don't even have any WebKit-specific hacks in there, whereas I do for Firefox and Opera, but maybe that's just because I couldn't test it in WebKit until after the WebKit developers had already fixed the bugs
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10:23 < hsivonen> hendry: I no longer see anything "transparent" on http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.natalian.org%2F
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10:39 < zcorpan> hsivonen: "Contexts in which element hr may be used:
10:39 < zcorpan> Empty."
10:40 < zcorpan> doesn't seem to be correct
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10:40 < hsivonen> zcorpan: indeed not. it's the content model
10:41 < zcorpan> yep
10:54 < Hixie> nn
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11:23 < hendry> hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.natalian.org%2F06
11:23 < hendry> hsivonen: i re-arranged some stuff
11:23 < hendry> nice email on the webkit list about support for HTML5. Sweeet.
11:24 < hsivonen> hendry: thanks. 
11:25 < hsivonen> it appears that there's a parser bug
11:25 < zcorpan> hendry: pointer?
11:25 < hsivonen> too bad that it will be tedious to catch when it happens midway a document of the size of the HTML5 spec
11:26 < hsivonen> the string "Contexts in which this element may be used:" gets some garbage inserted into it
11:28 < hendry> zcorpan: http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2007-November/002921.html
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11:34 < hendry> http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16145
11:34 < hendry> wtf is Mozilla doing with <video>. they seem to be dragging their heels with HTML5 stuff
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11:36 < hsivonen> hendry: any particular wtf in mind?
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11:40 < hendry> hsivonen: i am not tracking their bts, so i am not sure what's going on
11:40 < hendry> though I recall asking if video/element would be in firefox 3 and that didn't seem to be happening
11:41 < hendry> sorry, i should really check myself how far they are on WF2 & video/audio before I bitch :)
11:43 < hendry> i hate bugzilla. i guess i should read some manual, how to bookmark the bugs I want to see, saved searches isn't cutting it.
11:46 < hsivonen> hendry: from reading b.m.o, it seems to me that <video> was too late to make it to Firefox 3
11:47 < hsivonen> But I don't work on Firefox, so don't trust me on this point.
11:51 < hendry> any ideas about WF2? I think WF2 is low hanging fruit, isn't it? There is JS for IE support, no? http://olav.dk/wf2/demo/
11:51 < hendry> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=345822 a bug I found about WF2 in Firefox
11:53 < hendry> does that bug make any sense to you guys? 
11:53 < hendry> oh and there is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344614
11:56 < hsivonen> hendry: I'm not up to speed with the WF2 situation
11:57 < hendry> that bug depresses me
11:57 < hendry> or dissapoints rather :)
12:03 < zcorpan> hendry: thanks
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12:16 < hsivonen> hendry: fixed: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.natalian.org%2F06
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13:30 < hendry> hsivonen: great
13:30 < hendry> so now all i have is block/inline issues
13:31 < hendry> i hate the distinction between block/inline. Is there _really_ i need for this distinction or am I asking a really dumb question this lunch time? :)
13:34 < hsivonen> hendry: you need to discuss the block/inline thing with Hixie
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13:37  * zcorpan suspects that block/inline is going to make some authors ignore conf checking altogether
13:39 < hsivonen> I'd like to see glazou state his block/inline opinions/requirements on public-html
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13:56  * hendry agrees with zcorpan
13:58 < Philip`> I almost never want to check for conformance, I just want to check for errors, where I define "errors" as anything I did without noticing or without knowing the consequences
14:00 < Philip`> but the only tools available are validators / conformance checkers, so I have to put up with them not doing exactly what I want them to do
14:01 < hsivonen> Philip`: do you have a precise spec for what you want checked? :-)
14:02 < Philip`> hsivonen: No, since it would involve a tool that could read my mind :-)
14:02 < hendry> hsivonen: can you validator check for payload? gzip type ??
14:02 < hendry> sorry my keyb went mad on me. payload size I meant.
14:03 < hendry> be good if you could link into CSS validators and things like jslint.com too
14:03 < hsivonen> hendry: request recorded but I didn't understand the question
14:04 < hendry> hsivonen: i think it is useful to know how big your Web page is. And to ensure that something sensible like gzip compression on the server is being utilised
14:04 < hsivonen> hendry: ah. ok
14:05 < hsivonen> hendry: the payload size is checked only as a countermeasure agaings DoS
14:05 < hendry> other components of a web page, like CSS and JavaScript should also be validated and "linted" too somehow.
14:05 < hsivonen> hendry: not in the UI ATM
14:05 < hsivonen> hendry: request recorded
14:05 < Philip`> hsivonen: There is e.g. http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pjt47/ where the conformance checker complains about something that I did intentionally, which makes the tool useless since that stops it looking for anything that I might consider a real error that I would like to fix
14:07 < hsivonen> Philip`: if we as a group decide that what you are doing is a useful backwards compat design patter, I'd expect Hixie to make it conforming
14:08 < Philip`> The group's view of what is an error will not always be exactly the same as my view, and I want a tool that exactly reflects my view
14:10 < Philip`> (at least when I'm being an author - I have different desires when being a user of other people's pages)
14:11 < Lachy> Philip`, why not use divs instead of span, which would be conforming?
14:11 < Philip`> Lachy: Because it won't get parsed correctly in Firefox
14:12 < Lachy> oh, so you're using the span has a compatibility hack
14:12 < Philip`> Yes
14:13 < Philip`> so it's not something I'm going to fix in my code, because I put it there intentionally, and it's not helpful for a conformance checker to keep complaining about it
14:14 < Philip`> I haven't got a clue how/whether it's possible to implement a better approximation to my desires than the current single 'document conformance' concept
14:17 < Philip`> (so I can't give any constructive suggestions)
14:18 < Philip`> (and the current approximation isn't necessarily bad, and couldn't necessarily be made better in practice, but it's just not perfect :-) )
14:29 < hendry> hsivonen: could you use the WHATWG favicon on validator? I have so many tabs open nowadays. If things don't have a favicon I'm lost :)
14:30 < hsivonen> hendry: using the WHATWG favicon would be a bad idea, but I think having *a* favicon would be good
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14:30 < hsivonen> hendry: recording request
14:30 < nickshanks> Hixie: are you around?
14:30 < hendry> hsivonen: http://www.favicon.cc/
14:31 < hendry> hsivonen: why is a bad idea to suggest some sort of affiliation between whatwg and validator.nu?
14:31 < nickshanks> hsivonen: you might know! did ian (or anyone else) ever write a good piece about the theme of "great URLs never die"
14:32 < nickshanks> i want to educate some people
14:32 < hsivonen> nickshanks: TimBL wrote Cool URIs Don't Change
14:32 < nickshanks> yeah, that'll do
14:32 < hsivonen> hendry: because the WHATWG doesn't endorse a single validator
14:43 < Philip`> The WHATWG endorses validators in general, and there's only one in practice, so that sort of counts as an implicit endorsement :-)
15:00 < dglazkov> hello kind HTML5 folk
15:00 < zcorpan> hi
15:01 < dglazkov> a while back, I put together the HTML5 SQL player and posted about it on WHATWG list
15:01 < nickshanks> what, HTML5 folk?! where?
15:02 < dglazkov> I haven't heard any response, so I am wondering if it would be a good thing for me to continue improving upon it
15:02 < dglazkov> my POV is that it's always better to develop/enhance the spec based on an implementation, rather than thin air
15:03 < dglazkov> but I could be wrong
15:05  * zcorpan shares that POV
15:06 < zcorpan> though, the sql part of html5 is not my expertise
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15:07 < nickshanks> HTML5 is getting bloated IMO
15:07 < zcorpan> yeah
15:08 < nickshanks> SQL should be in a seperate, optional module
15:08 < zcorpan> moving stuff doesn't reduce bloat, though :)
15:08 < zcorpan> if the web starts using sql, implementors will have to support sql
15:09 < zcorpan> no matter where or even whether it is defined
15:09 < nickshanks> hmm, maybe I should write a web browser that only renders HTML 1.0
15:09 < zcorpan> how about xhtml2? :)
15:09 < nickshanks> http://web.nickshanks.com/books/gettinggold.xhtml2
15:10 < nickshanks> i'm waiting for that URL to begin working one day
15:12 < Philip`> "Error 404"?
15:12 < hsivonen> zcorpan: what's the current best list of what ARIA states apply to which roles
15:12 < nickshanks> oops, it's hyphenated
15:12 < hsivonen> ?
15:13 < zcorpan> hsivonen: not sure
15:16 < zcorpan> perhaps http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_to_API_mapping#Role_mappings.2C_with_properties_that_depend_on_the_role
15:20 < hsivonen> zcorpan: hmm. that's not normative and it has restrictions that http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-aria-role-20071019/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-state/ do not
15:20 < hsivonen> have
15:21 < nickshanks> Philip`: are you a student?
15:22 < hsivonen> zcorpan: does "Inherits into Roles" mean that the state or property can also occur directly on those roles?
15:22 < Philip`> nickshanks: Yes
15:22 < nickshanks> studying what?
15:23 < Philip`> Currently doing CS PhD
15:24 < zcorpan> hsivonen: don't know, actually
15:24 < nickshanks> does that entitle you to avoid council tax?
15:25 < zcorpan> i need to get an understanding of how aria really works, and spec it down
15:26 < Philip`> nickshanks: I assume so, since I'm not paying any tax at all
15:26 < nickshanks> i have a CS PhD student who's just moved into my house and i'm wondering if that means i lose my single person discount
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15:45 < Philip`> nickshanks: Hmm, I've got no idea - I'm just living in a college-owned house with other students, and all the details are taken care of by other people :-)
15:45 < nickshanks> fair enough
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17:33 < Philip`> MikeSmith: About your tactics-gapi-canvas comment: I wouldn't think that OpenGL experts would have much expertise relevant to the current canvas API, since it's quite a different area
17:34 < MikeSmith> Philip` - that was an indirect comment I was attempting to pass on from other team members
17:34 < Philip`> (though they would know relevant things for a future 3D canvas API)
17:34 < Philip`> MikeSmith: Okay
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17:35 < MikeSmith> I hope to get more people on the team to read/review the actual canvas API spec
17:46 < Philip`> It's harder to review now that it's about maintenance/evolution of the specification of an old technology, and not about the design of something new, so there's all the 'don't break the web' problems that make it hard to change much
17:48 < zcorpan> 'text-indent' doesn't inherit to tables in firefox and ie, apparently
17:48 < Philip`> but it'd be good to have people look at it if they're aware of what modifications are acceptable
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17:56 < MikeSmith> Philip` - yeah. Sorta perhaps indicates the spec and implementations around canvas are of a level of maturity that's a bit beyond what is normally required for publishing as part of a FPWD
17:57 < MikeSmith> some might say
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18:10  * Philip` finds another case where Firefox 2 writes random memory contents to a <canvas>, but, given the consequences of the most recent attempt at patching the same kind of bug in FF2, expects it would be safer to not tell anyone about it
18:12 < gavin> bah!
18:13 < gavin> you should certainly file a bug about it
18:13 < gavin> the most recent troubles with the patch for that bug were caused by process issues, not code issues
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18:19 < Hixie> Lachy_: anything useful come out of the telecon?
18:20 < gavin> Philip`: when you do file it, CC me?
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18:24 < Philip`> gavin: Okay, will do - just trying to implement an exploit for the bug, to make it more fun
18:24 < gavin> perhaps you should mark the bug security-sensitive
18:25 < gavin> I forget - did you do that for the last one?
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18:28 < Philip`> "_closedTabs:[{state:{entries:[{url:"http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/", children:[], title:"Firefox web browser | Faster, more secure, & customizable", cacheKey:0, ID:1, scroll:"0,0"}], index:1, zoom:1, disallow:"", xultab:"", extData:null, text:""}, ..."
18:28 < Philip`> I'm guessing web pages shouldn't have access to strings like that
18:31 < Philip`> Bah, I thought I found another problem but actually it was just dust on my monitor that looked like random pixels
18:33 < gavin> heh
18:33 < gavin> Philip`: that's right, web pages don't
18:33 < gavin> we just use a JSON-like format for serializing to disk
18:34 < Philip`> gavin: s/don't/shouldn't/ :-p
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18:34 < gavin> I'm telling you that they don't
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18:34 < gavin> if you have evidence otherwise, please to be filing a bug? :)
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18:42 < Philip`> gavin: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=406036
18:42 < Philip`> I would CC you if I knew what your email address was :-)
18:42 < gavin> that's OK, I can CC myself
18:42 < gavin> (gavin.sharp matches me)
18:44 < Philip`> gavin: I didn't mark the last bug security-sensitive, because I didn't really think about the security issue at first, and then I did realise but couldn't sensitise it myself so someone else did
18:44 < Lfe> ok
18:44 < gavin> Philip`: ok
18:44 < Lfe> oops :o
18:45  * gavin is put off by a branch build's non-native looking Mac widgets
18:45 < zcorpan> hsivonen: i've implemented collapsing of messages for validator.nu with javascript
18:45 -!- Lachy [n=Lachlan@cm-84.215.41.149.getinternet.no] has joined #whatwg
18:46 < zcorpan> hsivonen: http://simon.html5.org/temp/validator-nu-collapse.html
18:47 < zcorpan> hmm, but the button's label is wrong :)
18:48 < Lachy> zcorpan, clicking collapse multiple times has a weird bug
18:48 < hsivonen> zcorpan: cool. Thanks.
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18:49 < zcorpan> Lachy: now why would you do that ;)
18:50 < hsivonen> zcorpan: I will look into integrating this
18:50 < Lachy> I thought it would toggle it
18:50 < hsivonen> zcorpan: is this under the MIT license?
18:50 < zcorpan> hsivonen: if it helps :)
18:50 < hsivonen> zcorpan: it would
18:50 < zcorpan> then it is
18:50 < hsivonen> zcorpan: excellent. Thank you
18:50 < Lachy> hsivonen, I spoke to DanC earlier about the licence for the authoring guide
18:50 < zcorpan> do i need to include a boilerplate?
18:51 < hendry> is this old news? http://www.crockford.com/html/
18:51 < Lachy> he assigned anne to look into the issue
18:51 < hsivonen> zcorpan: preferably, yes, so I don't misrepresent anything by adding it myself
18:51  * gavin apologizes for spamming Philip` with bugmail
18:51 < zcorpan> pointer to such a boilerplate, please?
18:52 < hsivonen> zcorpan: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php
18:52 < Lachy> hsivonen, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2007OctDec/0007
18:52 < hsivonen> Lachy: excellent
18:53 < Philip`> gavin: No problem, I tend to ignore that email address anyway :-)
18:53 < hsivonen> zcorpan: with JS-compatible comments: http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/apidocs/src-html/nu/validator/htmlparser/common/DoctypeExpectation.html
18:55 < zcorpan> hsivonen: ok, added
18:56 < hsivonen> zcorpan: thank you
18:56 < nickshanks> sometimes i hate google
18:57 < nickshanks> it always ranks my website too high
18:57 < Hixie> i know the problem
18:57 < nickshanks> http://images.google.com/images?q=keyboard+layout
18:58 < zcorpan> Lachy: bug fixed
18:58 < hsivonen> nickshanks: yeah, that has interesting effects. like people asking me about Japanese fonts
18:58 < gsnedders> peh. take a look at http://google.com/search?q=homophobic+insults
18:58 < gsnedders> I'm the second result (or I was a few days ago)!
18:58 < nickshanks> heh
18:59 < Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ was high on the image search for "periodic table" a while ago
18:59 < nickshanks> thing is this costs me money because i've gone way over my bandwidth limits this month
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18:59 < zcorpan> nickshanks: Disallow /
18:59 < zcorpan> or is it Disallow: /
19:00 < nickshanks> there's apachectl stop
19:00 < nickshanks> which saves even more
19:00 < nickshanks> most hits i get are Windows people looking for free fonts
19:00 < nickshanks> all my free fonts are AAT-based .dfont files
19:01 < gsnedders> most common search referrer to my site: sports day speech
19:02 < zcorpan> ah, i still have a bug
19:02 < gsnedders> second is gsnedders 
19:02 < gsnedders> third is: causes of love
19:02 < gsnedders> how lovely
19:02 < gsnedders> :\
19:02 < nickshanks> where is 'causes of divorce' ?
19:02 < gsnedders> no, I only tag posts with lust or love, not divorce.
19:02 < gsnedders> I haven't done the marrying part yet (and legally can't)
19:03 < nickshanks> causes of lust?
19:03 < zcorpan> there
19:03 < nickshanks> how old are you?
19:03 < gsnedders> nickshanks: yeah, I have that (causes of lust)
19:03 < gsnedders> nickshanks: 15
19:03 < nickshanks> you can get married
19:03 < gsnedders> "causes of emo" too
19:03 < nickshanks> france 15
19:03 < nickshanks> scotland 14
19:03 < gsnedders> nickshanks: Scotland is 16
19:03 < nickshanks> japan: any age
19:04 < nickshanks> 14 with consent
19:04 < nickshanks> of parents
19:04 < gsnedders> nickshanks: no, there is no difference between consent of parents or not
19:04 < gsnedders> nickshanks: such a law only exists in England and Wales
19:05 < nickshanks> oh. hmm.
19:05 < hober> (and NI)
19:05 < zcorpan> hmm, doesn't hasAttribute() work in ie?
19:06 < nickshanks> gsnedders: http://web.nickshanks.com/analog/
19:06 < gsnedders> more odd searches: how long does it take to bleed to death from slitting wrists, get me an essay about anything, emo poems about falling in love but you can't have them
19:06 < nickshanks> scroll down to search terms
19:06  * zcorpan changes to getAttribute
19:07 < nickshanks> (i just changed webservers so it's a couple of weeks out of date and the images don't work - need to set analog back up again on the new server)
19:07 < gsnedders> nickshanks: heh. I only have stuff since I changed host. Too much rubbish in older ones (from spam bots and the like)
19:07 < Dashiva> zcorpan: You probably want to check .attributes[name].defined or what it is 
19:08 < nickshanks> if you look at index-full.html that goes back to may 2005
19:08 < Hixie> aha, this is why i'm getting flaky mail service right now http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/2007/11/17/gmail-forwarding-slowness
19:09 < zcorpan> Dashiva: oh yep. though getAttribute worked as well
19:09 < zcorpan> hsivonen: it doesn't work in ie6 because it doesn't support attribute selectors
19:09  * zcorpan has to go now
19:10 < hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
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19:28 < Lachy__> Apparently, I'm "not so democratic or balanced" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0104.html
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19:41 < Dashiva> Lachy__: You aren't me, so you're obviously not balanced
19:42 < hsivonen> Lachy__: you can become an unbalanced dictator
19:43 < Dashiva> "The HTMLWG is becoming less and less democratic everyday. It has become a dictatorship driven by three companies: Google, Apple and Opera."
19:43 < Dashiva> If that was true, we'd be publishing HTML 5 drafts by now >:O
19:45 < Lachy__> I don't mind being called unbalanced, but I fail to see how any of my responses in regards to the web dev guide have been undemocratice
19:45 < Lachy__> s/undemocratice/undemocratic/
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19:46 < Hixie> i don't understand what Roy and Julian want
19:46 < Hixie> what would it mean to describe the language without UA requirements?
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19:47 < hsivonen> Hixie: see the ODF spec :-)
19:47 < Hixie> but that's a _bad_ thing
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19:48 < Hixie> is it just the scripting parts he wants taken out?
19:48 < Lachy> I don't see how it is possible to address Roy's concern, since the group already resolved to call the spec HTML5 and the group knew exactly what the proposal contained when the decision was made
19:49 < Lachy> he wan't anything that isn't related to the markup taken out, despite the fact that it's not actually possible to do with some things
19:50 < Hixie> what isn't related to the markup?
19:50 < Hixie> as far as i can see, everything in the spec is related to the markup
19:50 < Lachy> no, I mean, just the syntax and element semantics
19:50 < tndH> i read it as "pretend script doesn't exist and all documents are valid"
19:51 < Hixie> "just the syntax and element semantics" would be mostly everything but scripting parts, no?
19:51 < Hixie> does he want the parser out too?
19:52 < Lachy> I presume he would be aware that we can't define how to parse HTML without at least considering document.write and innerHTML
19:52 < Hixie> i can't tell
19:52 < Hixie> i guess i'll wait for my mail to catch up and then ask him
19:52 < Lachy> There are certainly some people who don't think the parser should be in there
19:53 < Hixie> it's going to be hard to address everyone's desires in that case
19:53  * Hixie wonders how to address DanC's latest claim that we don't have critical mass
19:57 < Dashiva> It didn't take long before the talk about "w3c members" as opposed to "html wg members" came up...
19:58 < Hixie> 8 months, that's not that short
19:58 < Dashiva> Well, I was counting since the vote :)
19:59 < Hixie> i'm amused because the companies he mentioned haven't, by and large, voted on any of the votes
19:59 < Hixie> it's not clear how to address his concern
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20:02 < hsivonen> "W3C Reopens Emotion Incubator Group"
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20:31 < othermaciej> our charter specifically requires us to specify the DOM
20:32 < othermaciej> Roy's request that we violate the charter is not really in order
20:32 < Hixie> hah
20:32 < Hixie> feel free to call him on it
20:32 < othermaciej> I think you addressed his comments sufficiently
20:33 < Hixie> well i still haven't received that e-mail
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20:33 < Philip`> The charter says it's "in scope" - does that actually mean it's required?
20:35 < othermaciej> well, it's hard to argue that we "shouldn't" do a category of things that the charter explicitly declares in scope
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21:47 < Hixie> hey, the forms tf missed their deadline
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23:44 < Hixie> wow, what insanity
23:44 < Hixie> search for inurl:"nodetag.js" on Yahoo! and follow the trail
23:44 < Hixie> i honestly thought it was some sort of botnet artefact for a while
23:45 < Hixie> turns out to be what appears to be part of a legitimate survey network (questionmarket.com)
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23:46 < Hixie> their scripts have such wacky things as:
23:47 < Hixie> function DL_rw_0_8721_0()
23:47 < Hixie> {
23:47 < Hixie> 	if (0 != 4 && !0) {
23:47 < Hixie> 		setTimeout("DL_jsc_0_8721_0()" , Math.floor(Math.random() * 5) * 200 + 500);
23:47 < Hixie> 	} else {
23:48 < gavin> o_O
23:49 < Hixie> wow, a whole bunch of sites have identical stat.js files
23:50 < Hixie> aha, part of ShopFactory
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--- Day changed Fri Nov 30 2007
00:05 < Philip`> "The field of view shall be greater than zero and smaller than π" - that's quite an unhelpful character-misencoding :-(
00:07 < Philip`> Hmm, it says <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> but the web server sends Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
00:07 < Philip`> (on http://www.web3d.org/x3d/specifications/ISO-IEC-19775-X3DAbstractSpecification_Revision1_to_Part1/Part01/components/navigation.html )
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00:28 < othermaciej> Hixie: that hurts my brain
00:29 < Hixie> hurt mine, too
00:29  * Hixie tries to satisfy Roy
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00:47 < Hixie> do Athenia Associates have anything to do with Movable Type?
00:47 < Hixie> i don't understand why their copyright is in almost every mt-site.js file:
00:47 < Hixie> http://www.solareditores.com/digital/blog/mt-site.js
00:48 < Hixie> wait, that one doesn't mention movable type
00:48 < Hixie> some of them do
00:48 < Hixie> and they all look basically the same near the top
00:50 < Hixie> many do seem to mention typekey
00:51 < Hixie> which is a six apart thing, as is movable type, for which it was made, or something
00:51 < Hixie> gah
00:51 < Hixie> con-foosed
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01:09 < kingryan> Hixie: it looks like six apart just used some free code copyrighted by athenia
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01:20 < Hixie> maybe, yeah
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02:04 < Hixie> why are people still complaining about the spec having too much targetted at (whatever isn't their conformance class), when I've already said multiple times that we will in due course annotate the spec to provide different views to address this?
02:05 < Hixie> do they just not believe me? or what?
02:09 < othermaciej> well, T.V. Raman just favorably quoted a claim (effectively) that document conformance is not defined at all
02:09 < othermaciej> which just seems wrong to me
02:18 < Dashiva> Hixie: You're still *gasp* spending time editing those parts of the spec
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02:22 < karlUshi> Hixie?
02:23 < karlUshi> would it be possible to change karl@w3.org by mike@w3.org in http://blog.whatwg.org/w3c-restarts-html-effort
02:23 < karlUshi> I keep receiving requests :) 
02:23 < karlUshi> that I would prefer to have to redirect to mike
02:23 < karlUshi> Thanks.
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03:45 < MikeSmith> regarding request from karl, it might be better to just point that blog entry to here:
03:45 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/instructions
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04:12 < Hixie> karl: done
04:12 < Hixie> MikeSmith: the reason for that blog post was that the instructions on w3.org weren't simple enough
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04:13 < MikeSmith> Hixie - OK, I see
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06:13 < othermaciej> http://www.justsayhi.com/bb/html_quiz
06:17 < Hixie> i think i got about 70 odd when i tried
06:17 < Hixie> i pasted the ones i missed in the channel
06:19 < othermaciej> I got 65
06:19 < othermaciej> any that both of us missed should probably be dropped :-)
06:28 < Hixie> i missed some pretty important ones :-)
06:29 < mpt> 64
06:31 < mpt> I forgot all the monospace ones
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06:35 < othermaciej> I missed <html>
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13:13 < Philip`> Is http://xml.resource.org/ the sensible thing for writing RFC-like documents?
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13:54 < julianreschke> Philip: yes, xml.resource.org is a good starting point. You may also want to try the XSLT version when generating HTML output.
13:54 < zcorpan> hsivonen_: made http://simon.html5.org/temp/validator-nu-collapse.html work in ie6
14:04 < Philip`> julianreschke: Okay, thanks
14:05  * Philip` tries the XSLT version, and sees that it seems to work nicely
14:07 < julianreschke> Philip: if it doesn't, or if you have questions, please feel free to complain :-)
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15:09 < MikeSmith> Hixie - awake?
15:13 < Lachy> hey MikeSmith, that was an awesome response you sent about canvas today. Best explanation I've seen for why canvas is needed :-)
15:17 < MikeSmith> Lachy - thanks
15:17 < MikeSmith> took me a few minutes to write that one
15:17 < MikeSmith> plus a few minutes prior to that to think about it a little
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15:25 < hendry> Lachy: URL? :)
15:25 < Lachy> hendry, see public-html
15:25 < hendry> ok
15:26 < zcorpan> was it the very long email? :)
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15:27 < Lachy> yes
15:27  * zcorpan didn't read that one completely
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16:45 < hendry> can anyone recommend some good canvas demos that will work in Firefox 2.0.0.10?
16:46 < zcorpan> define "good"
16:46 < hendry> not tests
16:46 < hendry> something that will impress your friends
16:47 < zcorpan> http://simon.html5.org/presentations/html5-geekmeet.en points to 3 demos
16:49 < Philip`> hendry: You really don't want 2.0.0.10
16:49 < Philip`> because drawImage doesn't work in it
16:50 < hendry> umm, http://tapper-ware.net/canvas3d/ doesn't work because of that
16:51 < Philip`> Use http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/2.0.0.11-candidates/rc1/ if you want anything non-trivial to work
16:51 < Philip`> or use Opera :-)
16:51 < hendry> are the any dev tools like PHP or something that make it easy for devs to generate canvas code? GWT?
16:52 < Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/ is still my favourite canvas demo but I'm totally biased
16:52 < Philip`> hendry: Why would you want to generate code, rather than just writing it?
16:53 < hendry> ok, my use case wouldn't be games (like several of the demos I've seen)
16:54 < hendry> i want to perhaps visualize data with canvas. so i'm left wondering perhaps howto get access.log and <canvas> to talk
16:54 < Philip`> Like http://www.liquidx.net/plotkit/ ?
16:55 < hendry> Philip`: ah, that's more like it
16:56 < zcorpan> or you could use svg :)
16:59 < hendry> SVG almost detracts from canvas. Because you can use SVG for example instead of <canvas> in plotkit can't you? And probably in a lot of other use cases too
17:00 < zcorpan> likely
17:00 < Philip`> There are lots of cases where they can overlap
17:00 < Philip`> and some of those are nicer in canvas, and some are nicer in SVG
17:00 < Philip`> and other cases can only realistically be done in one or the other
17:02 < hendry> ok an example for specific case
17:02 < hendry> can SVG do animation? canvas can defn. do animation
17:03 < hendry> canvas is somewhat supported in IE6 right? that SVG isn't?
17:04 < Philip`> SVG can do declarative animation, and you can do scripted animation too
17:05 < hendry> hmm, so there is no distinction between the two with animation
17:05 < Philip`> There's a nasty hack to get some support for some parts of <canvas> in IE, which it seems people are using successfully in practice
17:06 < Philip`> I don't think anyone does the same to make SVG work in IE
17:06 < hendry> so +1 for canvas. kinda.d
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17:06 < hendry> i need IE6 on this macosx machine i have for testing
17:06 < Philip`> hendry: There is a distinction - e.g. SVG lets you animate a single object moving, whereas canvas requires you to repaint the entire screen whenever you change something
17:08 < Philip`> and SVG has annoying bugs in most implementations when you try doing something fancy, whereas canvas is more predictable since it has simple bugs instead of fancy bugs
17:08 < hendry> so there is some talk about canvas3D
17:09 < hendry> silly question: can SVG do 3D? :)
17:10 < Philip`> Canvas-3d is pretty much totally different to canvas-2d
17:10 < Philip`> (http://blog.vlad1.com/2007/11/26/canvas-3d-gl-power-web-style/ etc)
17:10 < hendry> and so would SVG-3D I guess (if it exists?)
17:10 < Philip`> SVG is just focussed on 2D, and doesn't make it easy to emulate 3D
17:11 < Philip`> There's stuff like X3D which is kind of analogous to SVG except 3D
17:11 < hendry> http://apike.ca/prog_svg_threed.html
17:13  * hendry thinks if i could do a couple of ven diagrams showing 1) support in browsers 2) use cases it could accomplish
17:14 < hendry> perhaps a little pointless as the future (support + features) is probably the most important elements in my mind.
17:14 < Philip`> That cube appears to not work in either Opera or Firefox 2 :-(
17:15 < Philip`> From what I've seen, canvas-2d allows slightly more impressive 3D emulation, though obviously it's all useless compared to canvas-3d
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21:04 < Philip`> False positives are kind of annoying :-(
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22:24 < Hixie> someone with an account on this forum -- http://www.memestreams.net/thread/bid34588/ -- should post a reply pointing them to the updated faq answer
22:27 < G0k> hey has anyone read about the w3c REX thing?
22:28 < G0k> http://www.w3.org/TR/rex/
22:29 < Hixie> my understanding is that patent issues killed that spec
22:29 < Hixie> but i could be wrong
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22:29 < Hixie> it was basically a dom patching format
22:29 < G0k> patents on...dom patching?
22:30 < G0k> (only curious because html5's dom events thing has some major cross over there)
22:30 < Hixie> i don't know what the patents were on, i specifically try to avoid learning about patents so as to avoid patent knowledge liability
22:30 < Hixie> the dom events stuff is actually very different
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22:30 < Hixie> it doesn't do dom patching, it just spawns events
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22:30 < Hixie> rex sounds like the same thing but is actually very different when you look at actually what it does
22:30 < Hixie> iirc
22:30 < G0k> the events could be dom manipulation events though right?
22:31 < Hixie> sure but they don't cause anything to happen
22:31 < G0k> although...it doesn't specify how you handle them
22:31 < G0k> ah
22:31 < G0k> yeah
22:31 < Hixie> dom manipulation events everywhere except in the rex spec are triggered _by_ mutations, not the other way aronud (which is unique to rex)
22:35 < G0k> interesting
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23:36 < Hixie> i think i can safely announce that /js/ is the winner of most popular directory to put your site-specific scripts in
23:36 < Hixie> outbeating /scripts/ and /jscripts/ and /javascript/ by a lot
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23:39 < othermaciej> how popular is "ecmascript"?
23:39 < Hixie> i didn't see it
23:40 < Dashiva> What about for style?
23:41 < Hixie> don't know, just doing scripts here
23:42  * jwalden snickers at "ecmascript"
23:42 < othermaciej> that's about the level I was expecting
23:43  * othermaciej was thinking of proposing that ECMAScript 4 be renamed to JavaScript 4
23:43 < othermaciej> because most web developers haven't a fucking clue what ECMAScript is
23:44 < Hixie> ECMAScript was used to avoid trademark issues with Sun and Java
23:44 < Hixie> it was intentionally a stupid name so nobody would use it
23:46 < othermaciej> yeah, I don't think the trademark issue is real
23:46 < othermaciej> certainly not any more
23:46 < othermaciej> would be a good bug to fix now if we can
23:46 < othermaciej> especially since the new spec uses "ES" and "ECMASCRIPT" in identifiers
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23:47 < Dashiva> Might be problematic with regard to mozilla
23:47 < Hixie> ew
23:48 < Dashiva> Their js2 runs mostly parallel to es4
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--- Day changed Sat Dec 01 2007