?
20:18 < Hixie> or the root element being instead of
20:18 < Hixie> or of there not being a
20:18 < Hixie> or of value="" on <li> not having a numeric value
20:18 < Hixie> etc...
20:19 < Hixie> many things can be "wrong" without their wrongness necessarily being an immediate practical problem
20:20 < Dashiva> Philip: A @suppresserrors directive, perhaps. "I know I'm not supposed to put this <p> here, but I'm going to do it, so don't bug me"
20:21 < Dashiva> The validator can't really know the difference otherwise
20:23 < Philip> <h1> inside <h2> would make header extractors (like for tables of contents) break; <li> outside <ol> doesn't get indented properly and gets parsed confusingly in existing browsers; missing <title> means people can't bookmark your page nicely; non-numeric <li> value won't get rendered properly; etc
20:24 < Hixie> inline text without a proper paragraph container will get rendered confusingly by an aural UA
20:25 < Hixie> and can't be styled properly
20:25 < Hixie> and won't have proper paragraph margins
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20:33 < Philip> Does <span><div>...</div></span> cause problems?
20:34 < Hixie> confusing styling behaviour by default?
20:35 < Hixie> i don't know what it would mean, which i suppose is another problem
20:35 < Hixie> it also wouldn't parse right if used after a <p> element with an implied end tag
20:36 < Hixie> i don't think the "allow everything except what causes problems" strategy is a winning one, to be honest
20:36 < Hixie> it seems overly risky
20:36 < Hixie> without a clear gain
20:36 < anne> hmm, transparent <a> is going to be tricky
20:36 < Hixie> transparent <a>?
20:37 < anne> <a> around block-level elements
20:37 < Hixie> ah
20:37 < Hixie> yes it is
20:38 < anne> that has exactly the same problem as above <p> ... <a> <div> ... </div> </a> is an issue while <p> ... </p> <a> <div> ... isn't
20:38 < Hixie> that's just one of the problems, yeah
20:39 < anne> DOM-wise and parsing-wise is solved afaict
20:39 < anne> btw, I wanted to ask about no new features, what about Ruby markup?
20:40 < anne> and this async JavaScript thread
20:42 < Hixie> ruby is on the list of things that will be added
20:42 < Hixie> worker pools are punted to 5.1
20:42 < hsivonen> Hixie: is "the list" concretely written down somewhere?
20:42 < Hixie> the list is wf2, rendering, and ruby, i believe.
20:43 < hsivonen> ok
20:43 < Hixie> i may come across some old suggestions that were sent before the feature freeze that deserve to be added, too
20:43 < Hixie> we'll see
20:43 < hsivonen> I should probably document that Validator.nu doesn't support IPv6...
20:43 < anne> http://fileformats.blogspot.com/2007/11/design-principles-for-html-5.html maybe we should have another note with a few reasons of why HTML5 is needed...
20:44 < anne> (the ones that zcorpan mentioned there + what hsivonen talked about during the TPAC)
20:45 < Hixie> i'd just stick it in the design principles
20:45 < Hixie> since hte goals mostly explain why we have hte principles we have
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20:47 < Philip> hsivonen: Non-support of IPv6 is the default assumption for users of anything at all on the internet - it's perhaps more efficient to only document the rare cases where something does support IPv6
20:47 < anne> i guess that could work too
20:48 < hsivonen> Philip: well, yeah. but it sucks that portless URIs look like a failure at the other end and URIs with port do nothing which is *really* weird
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21:14 < DanC> I'm doing some system administration, and I think I'm going to reboot... so while the http://fileformats.blogspot.com/2007/11/design-principles-for-html-5.html is on the screen, here...
21:14 < DanC> if it has anything interesting to say, I'd appreciate if somebody would excerpt and cite in mail to our comments list
21:15 < DanC> a little redundancy is in order while W3C catches up on the migration from email to blogs
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00:24 < Philip> Looks like it's now up to three bug reports in the past day since Firefox broke <canvas> drawImage
00:25 < anne> I can't find the e-mail that formally announced that the survey result for HTML 5 was not conclusive enough
00:25 < anne> for publishing HTML 5*
00:25 < Philip> I'm slightly surprised people rely on it (and notice when it breaks) so much
00:25 < anne> i like it, it means we're actually doing something that has a chance of impacting the Web
00:27 < Philip> It also means we get legacy compatibility problems already, which isn't quite so good :-)
00:27 < mjs> Philip: broke it how?
00:28 < Philip> (e.g. someone filed a bug because FF3 no longer resets the path when calling clearRect and it broke their code)
00:28 < anne> Hmm, Chris Wilson primary reason for moving <canvas> to a separate group is that it's easier to get the right people there... euhm...
00:28 < Philip> mjs: Broke it so that it throws an exception whenever you call it
00:29 < gavin> we're going to be quickly releasing 2.0.0.11 to fix it
00:30 < Philip> gavin: Okay, sounds good
00:31 < Philip> (Well, not so good for the people who have to organise the release, I guess)
00:31 < anne> IBM objects too because they think it's out of scope
00:31 < anne> but they'd agree if the charter was changed
00:31 < Hixie> yeah i was surprised to see sam say that
00:31 < Hixie> that seems... out of character
00:32 * anne has seen that before with IBM
00:32 < mjs> Is he anti-canvas personally?
00:32 < Hixie> yeah, but i expected better of sam
00:32 < mjs> I would expect Official IBM Directives to come from one of their other reps
00:33 < mjs> I think he might think that explicit detail of the charter is important in principle
00:33 < Hixie> (may i never be forced to work for a company like that)
00:33 < mjs> though I am not sure why
00:33 < mjs> clearly it has never been important for any other WG before
00:35 < anne> indeed
00:35 < anne> access control comes to mind
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00:40 < anne> i think it's a bit sad that after nine months all Microsoft has done is stalling stuff without actually contributing to HTML 5
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00:47 < anne> as for that the survey didn't carry
00:47 < anne> all I could find was this: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/16-html-wg-minutes#item04
00:47 < anne> no announcement on public-html-wg-announce afaict
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00:53 < Dashiva> Reading survey results, I wonder if not some people would lead much happier lives in the xhtml2 wg...
00:57 < Hixie> i look forward to seeing what conclusions are drawn from these surveys
00:58 < anne> the funny part is that we'll likely get another five of these if I understood DanC correctly
00:58 < anne> for offline, sql, history, etc.
00:58 < Hixie> well if anyone in the group is trying to slow the group down, they're sure succeeding well
00:59 < Hixie> kinda sad to see the w3c be played like this, though
00:59 < Dashiva> I thought this was business as usual?
01:00 < Hixie> i don't think i've ever seen quite so blatent process abuse for the purpose of implementing delay tactics
01:00 * Dashiva is a w3c newbie
01:00 < Hixie> i've certainly seen lots of process abuse before, but not like this
01:00 < Hixie> usually the process abuse is in the other direction -- making things progress without taking feedback into account, for instance
01:04 < anne> XMLHttpRequest is also being delayed
01:04 < mjs> it is sad
01:04 < anne> although there's a deadline there somewhere
01:05 < mjs> there was one formal object and five disagrees
01:05 < mjs> the chairs have said motions carried with more opposition than that before
01:05 < anne> not sure about XMLHttpRequest Level 2
01:05 < mjs> does the "consensus" rule basically give them discretion to decide whatever they want regardless of the survey?
01:05 < anne> that certainly seems to be the case
01:05 < Dashiva> consensus is pretty subjective, so might be
01:06 < Dashiva> By the way, can someone enlighten me what's the thing about r\^ole?
01:06 < anne> because not everyone replied some of the larger organizations that didn't have been called and asked for their opinion as I understood it
01:06 < mjs> Philip Taylor
01:06 < Philip> Dashiva: It's LaTeX
01:06 < mjs> 's formal objection seems pretty ill formed anyway
01:06 < Philip> (for writing accented characters)
01:06 < Philip> (I think)
01:06 < Dashiva> But why would there be a ^ on the o in role?
01:06 < mjs> (the capital TAYLOR)
01:06 < anne> I don't think TAYLOR was the issue
01:07 < Hixie> well the survey isn't closed yet
01:07 < Hixie> assuming you mean the canvas one
01:07 < anne> I was talking about the HTML 5 one
01:07 < Hixie> if you mean the html5 publishing one, i don't know what happened with that
01:07 < Hixie> that was weird
01:07 < Philip> Dashiva: Because that's one way to spell it
01:07 < mjs> Hixie: I mean the html5 publishing one
01:07 < mjs> Chris Wilson did actually vote on that one
01:07 < mjs> that may be a first
01:07 < anne> DanC only said something during the telcon about it as far as I can tell
01:07 < anne> I thought he also e-mailed about it but he didn't
01:08 < mjs> did the chairs agree to publish the diffs?
01:08 < anne> nothing on public-html-wg-announce
01:08 < mjs> (w/ about the same level of objection)
01:08 < Dashiva> Philip: Seems like a lot of work for no difference to me :)
01:08 < anne> html4-differences is tied to publishing html5 as far as I can tell
01:08 < mjs> they are separate questions on the survey
01:08 < Philip> (I think \^o comes from abbreviating 'os' in something like French)
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01:09 < anne> mjs, well, they decided not to publish for now anyway
01:09 < mjs> anne: both of them?
01:09 < anne> although I haven't explicitly asked because I made the aforementioned assumption
01:09 < mjs> seems silly to make you and Hixie write speical documents to raise awareness of parts of the spec, but refuse to publish the spec itself or existing documents that would help raise awareness like the diffs
01:10 < anne> I think offline-webapps might be a different case
01:10 < anne> DanC did talk about publishing that, but it didn't become very concrete
01:10 < anne> I guess we'll get more surveys
01:11 < Dashiva> I'm sure DanC or Chris will post the full story about the decision soonish, we are supposed to be the poster child for an open and transparent process, after all :)
01:12 * anne thinks Dashiva forgot </sarcasm> :p
01:12 < Dashiva> Maybe, or maybe I want to believe
01:13 < Dashiva> Or maybe I'm scared of chaals' cricket bat
01:13 < Hixie> no, i'm sure we'll see a descision after the survey is closed
01:13 < marcos> hehe
01:13 < anne> oh, the html5 survey is not closed?
01:13 < Hixie> but if we do get yet more surveys, i'm going to start being more proactive in stopping this nonsense
01:13 < Hixie> anne: the <canvas> one
01:13 < mjs> I'm not sure what the decision actually is on the html5 question
01:14 < anne> we're still talking about the html5 + html4-differences survey Hixie
01:14 < Hixie> anne: ah, ok
01:14 < Hixie> well
01:14 < Hixie> i think DanC thinks the conclusion was conveyed
01:14 < Hixie> so if you don't think so, i recommend e-mailing him and www-archive, asking for him to clarify
01:15 < mjs> is there an email publishing the relevant minutes?
01:15 < Hixie> (i wouldn't phrase such an e-mail in a leading way, e.g. i wouldn't recommend saying "so this vote was overwhelmingly in favour of publishing, when are we publishing", as that will likely make him defensive)
01:16 < anne> mjs, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2007OctDec/0021.html
01:19 < anne> yeah, prolly a good idea, done
01:20 < anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0095.html
01:20 * anne goes to bed now
01:20 < Hixie> nn
01:21 < mjs> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0096.html
01:45 < mjs> this www-archive message is awesome: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0068.html
01:46 < Dashiva> wow
01:46 < Dashiva> Mr. Turin has competition
01:50 * MikeSmith looks at URL and finds a familar message..
01:52 < Lachy> That's completely incoherent
01:52 < Lachy> MikeSmith, why did you forward it to the archive?
01:53 < MikeSmith> because I wanted to preserve it for posterity
01:54 < Lachy> it's not the first time I've seen someone believe XHTML is a security issue
01:55 < MikeSmith> yeah, but this dude appears to believe a few other things that most don't
01:56 < Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0052.html
01:57 < MikeSmith> ...invisible and unrecognized ports that security can't protect
01:57 < MikeSmith> Lachy - we should put the two of them in contact with either other
01:59 < MikeSmith> er, either "either other" or the more mundane "each other" (as most people seem to like to phrase it)
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02:38 < mjs> Lachy: Facepage installed xhml 4
02:38 < mjs> what's there not to get?
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11:25 < hsivonen> anne: I don't understand the header registration system. why are RFC 4229 "provisional"?
11:27 < anne> not all RFCs are standards
11:28 < anne> oh, that document registered a bunch of headers previously not registered
11:28 < hsivonen> one would think that any RFC would taint the strings so that they cannot be reused
11:29 < anne> and some of the headers it registered were not part of a standard but just some proposal
11:29 < hsivonen> ok
11:29 < anne> 4229 is the header registration doc
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11:30 < hsivonen> http issues remind me that I should document the HTTP response codes used by the Validator.nu API
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14:01 < anne> I have referrers from ptth://moc.elgoog.www
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14:07 < Philip> Someone mirrored Google?
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14:59 < Lachy> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=3 - info about how screen readers handle fieldsets and legends
15:00 < hsivonen> Lachy: It would be interesting to have Orca, NVDA and VoiceOver results as well
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16:22 * DanC finishes a little fun with html5lib and hCalendar ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-calendar/2007Nov/0001.html
16:22 * DanC tunes in to see if the agenda is out yet...
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16:26 * DanC doesn't see an agenda from Chris Wilson yet... hopes it comes out soon
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16:41 * Philip has usually used the minidom treebuilder in html5lib, because it's close enough to JS DOM that he doesn't have to learn anything new
16:41 < Philip> but I'm wondering if ElementTree is a much better way to do things
16:50 < DanC> cool... an elf updated http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
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16:58 < anne-mac> nice
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17:00 < anne-mac> so where's page down on my MacBook?
17:01 < Philip> Fn + arrow-key?
17:02 < anne-mac> "Michael(tm) Smith, HTML Working Group roustabout" :)
17:02 < Philip> (Don't ask me where the Insert key is)
17:02 * anne-mac learns about cmd+c and cmd+v
17:02 < anne-mac> ah thanks, Fn works
17:03 * Philip really doesn't like that keyboard layout
17:03 < anne-mac> the latest beta for Opera looks quite reasonable on the Mac compared to earlier editions
17:04 < anne-mac> at least in terms of amount of UI, design could probably be nicer
17:04 < anne-mac> I haven't missed insert yet, though I'm missing delete
17:05 < Philip> Fn + backspace
17:06 < anne-mac> is that supposed to work outside normal keyboard input?
17:10 < Philip> Not sure what you mean
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21:24 < Hixie> DanC: yt? i have a question about the unrecorded objections in light of our charter requirements to record objections
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22:58 < jgraham> Philip: re: ElementTree from a few hours ago; lxml is the way forward. All the goodness of ElementTree + a much richer api
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05:21 < MikeSmith> via markp on #whatwg :
05:21 < MikeSmith> http://www.crockford.com/html/
05:36 < marcos> re: crockford article, I don't understand why you need a version... seems silly.
05:37 < marcos> argh.. I'm not reading any more
05:37 < marcos> <meta http-equiv=content-script-type content=application/ecmascript> was enough!
05:37 < marcos> :P
05:38 < MikeSmith> marcos - I wonder if the <module> idea is worth discussion.
05:39 < marcos> yeah, maybe... but still don't think it's any better than Iframe... not that he talks about it in any detail
05:40 * marcos takes a look at json module
05:40 < MikeSmith> I wonder if he has actually read the HTML5 spec (the real one, I mean)
05:40 < MikeSmith> or if he is aware of the related work in the Web API WG
05:41 < marcos> from skimming, seems that eventsource does what he what he wants
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05:49 * MikeSmith re-reads #public-html logs and finds http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070409
05:51 < gavin> you mean #html-wg logs
05:52 < MikeSmith> gavin - yeah
05:52 < MikeSmith> [[
05:52 < MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> was there ever any discussion on the whatwg list of Douglas Crockford's proposal for a <module> tag?
05:52 < MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> element
05:52 < MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> http://json.org/module
05:52 < MikeSmith> <anne> yeah, I think so
05:52 < MikeSmith> <anne> but it seems that cross-site XHR and cross document messaging cover both...
05:52 < MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> ah, yeah
05:52 < MikeSmith> <anne> no need for JSONRequest and <module>
05:52 < MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> yeah, I found the thread and reading it now
05:52 < MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> anne - Web API WG is working on spec'ing (or adopting spec for) cross-document messaging? or planning to?
05:52 < MikeSmith> <anne> nope
05:52 < MikeSmith> <mjs> what is <module>?
05:52 < MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> mjs - something that Douglas Crockford wrote a proposal for
05:53 < MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> http://json.org/module
05:53 < MikeSmith> <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-October/007522.html
05:53 < MikeSmith> <mjs> sounds like cross-document messaging will work just as well w/o having to introduce a new element
05:53 < MikeSmith> <mjs> I wish Doug Crockford would follow HTML standards work more closely if he wants to make proposals like that
05:53 < MikeSmith> <anne> he made that proposal on the whatwg list ages ago
05:53 < MikeSmith> <anne> i think since then he's sort of convinced that cross-doc is the way to go
05:53 < MikeSmith> <anne> but i'm not entirely sure
05:53 < MikeSmith> ]]
05:53 < MikeSmith> damn, that's longer than I thought it was
05:53 < MikeSmith> sorry
05:53 < MikeSmith> anyway, it seems that Doug appears to be not yet convinced
05:53 < MikeSmith> and also that my memory really sucks
05:54 < marcos> I see
05:55 * MikeSmith wanders of to eat lunch, which will hopefully improve his memory for the afternoon
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07:26 < Hixie> the one thing that d crockford does advocate which i think we will need is data channels that can take data channel end points as data. that basically allows you to create caps-aware components, which would solve many problems.
07:28 < mjs> socket passing?
07:30 < mjs> (analogue of)
07:33 < Hixie> yeah
07:35 < mjs> clearly we must amend the charter right away to include this concept
07:36 < Hixie> i don't think we should do it in 5.0
07:36 < Hixie> we have zero browser experience with the idea
07:37 < mjs> true
07:37 < mjs> it sounds promising but not solid enough to be a (relatively) late feature addition
07:37 < Hixie> yeah
07:38 < Hixie> i do think it'd be a good thing for a browser to experiment with though (or gears, or a firefox extension)
07:47 < MikeSmith> he writes "... _common capability communication_ mechanism that I am advocating for Google Gears and Adobe AIR"
07:47 < MikeSmith> "common capability communication" in ital
07:47 < Hixie> yeah that's what i'm referring to
07:48 < MikeSmith> search for "common capability communication" turns up zip for me except reddit link to his article
07:48 < MikeSmith> so seems like he's not advocated for that publicly, or at least not using that term
07:50 < MikeSmith> as an aside, I kinda wonder at times what others at Yahoo think about his evangelism of Gears
07:50 < MikeSmith> or maybe evangelism is too strong a word
07:51 < MikeSmith> but he does seem to mention it a lot, and always favorably
07:53 < MikeSmith> Hixie - btw, do you reckon that having an standard for something Workerpool-like is doable in HTML5 v1?
08:09 < MikeSmith> anne - maybe would be good to have a link to the HTML Design Principles doc on html5.org
08:10 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, please close ACTION-6
08:10 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-6
08:10 * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-6.
08:10 < trackbot-ng> ACTION-6 Create script for building PDF version of HTML5 spec using Prince closed
08:10 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, thanks for finally making yourself marginally useful
08:12 < shepazu> lol
08:14 < Hixie> MikeSmith: "common capability communication" is just a description of what he means, caps-based communication is a pretty well-defined area (though maybe mostly theoretical at the moment)
08:14 < MikeSmith> ah, OK
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08:15 < Hixie> MikeSmith: i think we're better off pushing worker pools to a 5.x or 6.0 release (or to a webapi spec), they're going to need some pretty detailed new prose and interfaces
08:15 < Hixie> MikeSmith: it's also hard to do them before we have caps-based comms or something similar
08:15 < Philip> Is http://code.google.com/p/google-caja/ related to that capabilities idea?
08:16 < MikeSmith> Hixie - I see. I guess this does seem like something that would benefit from some browser-implementor experimentation before attempting a standard spec
08:19 < MikeSmith> Philip - I see 27 November date on the Caja spec. Is that reflect it being a new project, or just that's the latest update?
08:19 * MikeSmith doesn't recognize any of the names on the spec
08:19 < MikeSmith> maybe Ben Laurie
08:19 < MikeSmith> yeah
08:20 < Philip> MikeSmith: The discussion group appears to go back to 30 October
08:23 < Hixie> oh is caja public now? yes, that's very much along the lines of what i mentioned. some of the people on that team used to work with douglas
08:29 < mjs> MikeSmith: worker pools need a tight definition of what the global scope looks like and which things may work differently than if used on the main thread
08:30 < Hixie> worker pools are a three-month project for an experienced spec editor, imho, not counting resolving minor issues in response to later feedback
08:34 < MikeSmith> mjs - worker pools seem to help solve some of the fundamental security problems, and if we go by the rule that solving security problems early should always be a priority, I wonder if it's worth trying to drive work on spec'ing and implementing it in the HTML 5.0 time frame
08:34 < MikeSmith> Hixie also (above)
08:35 < mjs> MikeSmith: I don't think worker pools are really a security solution
08:35 < mjs> or at least, that's not the intent
08:35 < MikeSmith> OK
08:35 < mjs> they are intended to be a concurrency solution
08:35 < MikeSmith> right, I do understand that part
08:35 < mjs> to avoid blocking the UI with long-running compuation, use convenient sync I/O APIs, and take advantage of increasingly multi-core / multi-cpu hardware
08:35 < MikeSmith> about not blocking the UI behavior
08:36 < mjs> I think it is a good idea
08:36 < mjs> hard to design and implement properly as a core browser feature
08:36 < MikeSmith> hmm, OK
08:36 < mjs> if we decide to go for it in WebKit, I will give Hixie fair warning
08:36 < mjs> many things in a browser are designed around web content mostly doing stuff in a single thread of execution
08:37 < mjs> but fortunately Gears worker pools have a good design, shared-nothing threads with message-passing
08:38 < MikeSmith> It will be interesting to see what developers end up doing with Gears
08:41 * MikeSmith wonders if there is a list somewhere of apps that are actually using Gears (other than Reader)
08:42 < Hixie> i agree that worker pools would be good, and the earlier we do them, the better
08:42 < Hixie> i just don't think we have the resources to do them at the moment
08:43 < Hixie> (standards-wise)
08:44 < MikeSmith> I see
08:46 * MikeSmith wonders what creative ways could be tried to get some HTML WG and Web API member organizations to volunteer skilled people for spec editing
08:47 < Hixie> there are a number of specs far more urgently needed that are in need of editors in webapi
08:47 < Hixie> which would be far easier to write than worker pools would
08:47 < MikeSmith> yeah
08:47 < Hixie> like keyboard events, dom3 events, web dom core, setTimeout, CSSOM...
08:47 < Hixie> bindings for dom...
08:48 < Hixie> (some of those have putative editors, but they haven't actually done anything in the past few weeks, so...)
08:49 < MikeSmith> Yeah, we need to have some good way to punish the wayward editors
08:49 < MikeSmith> some stick, along with the carrot
08:52 < hober> How many member organizations pay qualified engineers to full-time spec-write?
08:53 < MikeSmith> Actually, I'm not sure sometimes what the carrot is this case or how appealing it is; i.e., "Hey! You get to spend months (years) working on writing and tweaking a spec for API X and dealing with potentially massive numbers of comments (including last-call comments) each of which you are expected to take time to respond to in good faith, before it can all be blessed."
08:54 < MikeSmith> hober - very few it seems
08:54 < MikeSmith> very very few
08:54 < hober> right
08:54 < hober> I mean, it seems like "lack of qualified and available editors" is a problem readily solved by sufficiently endowed w3c member organizations
08:55 < Hixie> actually finding qualified editors is a real problem
08:55 < Hixie> there just aren't that many
08:55 < Hixie> i've tried finding some to hire, and have basically failed
08:55 < hober> Sure. The 90-9-1 breakdown is something like "90% unwilling and unqualified, 9% willing but unqualified, 1% willing and qualified"
08:56 < mjs> there's definitely people who are qualified and unwilling
08:56 < Hixie> most of the qualified ones are unwilling in this market
08:56 < mjs> (due to time constraints)
08:56 < Hixie> mjs: also because they know it's a hell of a job
08:56 < mjs> that too :-)
08:56 < Hixie> same reason i'm qualified to do browser QA but try to do as little of it as possible
08:56 < MikeSmith> and I would think the pool of potential spec writers for work related to browsing technologies would be made of largely of people who have probably already been at least somewhat involved in discussions of the HTML5 work and Web API work
08:57 < mjs> same reason I'm qualified to do browser engine development by try to -- no, wait, I do it all the time
08:57 < mjs> damn
08:57 < Hixie> MikeSmith: i think we personally met most of those people in boston
08:57 < mjs> it's a hell of a job, but somebody's gotta do it
08:57 < Hixie> mjs: that's my approach with spec work :-)
08:57 < MikeSmith> clearly what we need here is some kind of cloning device
08:57 < Hixie> not sure who you'd want to clone, but at least cloning me wouldn't work
08:57 < MikeSmith> let's stop work on HTML5 and get to work on cloning technology
08:57 < hober> MikeSmith: actually, public-html would be much more pleasant with lots of hixie clones contributing. :)
08:57 < Hixie> since all the clones would want to work on the same part of the same spec :-P
08:58 < MikeSmith> heh
08:58 < MikeSmith> like when Calvin clones himself to get out of doing his homework and his clone also refuses to do homework, so they make another clone, and another, etc.
08:59 < mjs> Hixie: I suspect environmental influence might be enough to make the clones work on slightly different parts
08:59 < hober> MikeSmith: yes, exactly what I was thinking of
09:00 < MikeSmith> mjs - everybody knows browser development is a joyride
09:01 < MikeSmith> especially the bug fixing
09:01 < MikeSmith> and the regressions
09:01 < Philip> You get to participate in all the fun browser conspiracies
09:01 < mjs> MikeSmith: it's almost as exciting as driving a ferarri... into a brick wall
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09:10 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-10
09:10 * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-10.
09:10 < trackbot-ng> ACTION-10 Integrate into the Nov. 2007 meeting record the notes that Joshue took during the 2007-11-10 ARIA discussion closed
09:14 < MikeSmith> btw, an important decision I made in the last couple days is to try to recruit Kool Keith as the new King of Web Standards
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09:17 < Philip> Sadly I have missed out on ever having heard of him before now :-(
09:20 < MikeSmith> Philip - you are indeed missing out if you don't know about the many worlds of Kool Keith
09:20 < MikeSmith> in case you also missed the excitement of "Blue Beanie Day":
09:21 < MikeSmith> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/2067348343/in/pool-bluebeanieday2007/
09:21 < MikeSmith> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sideshowbarker/2067567428/in/pool-bluebeanieday2007/
09:21 < MikeSmith> my contributions to that great day in history
09:28 < Philip> I am somewhat out of touch with these aspects of the world, I'm afraid
09:28 < Philip> Oops, I have to leave five minutes ago
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10:02 < MikeSmith> ACTION-19?
10:02 * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-19
10:02 < trackbot-ng> ACTION-19 -- Michael(tm) Smith to work with editors to publish design principles draft -- due 2007-11-22 -- OPEN
10:02 < trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/19
10:06 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-19
10:06 * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-19.
10:06 < trackbot-ng> ACTION-19 work with editors to publish design principles draft closed
10:15 < hsivonen> Hixie's framing of the FPWD issue on the list makes sense to me
10:17 < mjs> me too
10:17 < mjs> will probably comment on list later
10:17 < mjs> I reread the patent policy today
10:18 < mjs> and it seems to me that contents of the charter are completely irrelevant to the patent policy
10:18 < mjs> and that review of the FWPD is required no matter what it contains or what the charter says
10:18 < MikeSmith> hsivonen - you mean http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0423.html ?
10:19 < hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
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11:09 < MikeSmith> close ACTION-5
11:09 * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-5.
11:09 < trackbot-ng> ACTION-5 Make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach closed
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11:50 < anne> zcorpan, in http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5 you want "and is before the root element" instead of "not after"
11:50 < anne> as for letting it depend on the HTML-ness flag, I guess we can try to remove that variable
12:02 < zcorpan> anne: what if there isn't a root element?
12:02 < zcorpan> yet
12:03 < zcorpan> or what's wrong with "not after"?
12:07 < anne> <root><?xml-stylesheet ...?> ... </root> <?xml-stylesheet ...?>
12:07 < anne> only the second is after, but neither should be applied
12:08 < anne> "and is before the root element (if any)"
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12:16 < anne> btw, for XSLT it should probably ignore all but the first PI and only adhere href=
12:17 < zcorpan> the first isn't child of the Document
12:17 < zcorpan> so isn't applied
12:18 < zcorpan> yep (re xslt)
12:18 < anne> ah, child of Document, missed that
12:18 < MikeSmith> Has anybody seen oedipus (Gregory Rosmaita) on here lately?
12:18 < MikeSmith> seems like his used to be around but not recently
12:19 < anne> you still need to add (if any) to cover the case of not having a root element
12:19 < anne> I believe he is only around during telcons
12:19 < MikeSmith> anne - kthx
12:19 < MikeSmith> close ACTION-26
12:19 * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-26.
12:19 < trackbot-ng> ACTION-26 Work on getting a VCS system set up for storing test cases, by 2007-11-29 closed
12:21 < zcorpan> anne: how can it be after the root element when there is no root element? :)
12:22 < zcorpan> but i can change the wording to make it clearer
12:23 < anne> yeah, it's just that the sentence implies there is a root element
12:26 < zcorpan> ok. true
12:29 < anne> it would also help I think if the draft mentioned "processing instruction" once
12:38 -!- MikeSmith [MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org] has quit [Ping timeout]
12:43 < zcorpan> yeah. i'll make the spec readable in due course :)
12:50 -!- smedero [smedero@158.130.16.191] has joined #html-wg
12:57 -!- MikeSmith [MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org] has joined #html-wg
13:04 < smedero> MikeSmith: you are knocking off the ACTIONS today man. go you.
13:05 < MikeSmith> smedero - most of them mine own, and overdue
13:06 < MikeSmith> so a preemptive strike to avoid getting strafed during the call for having overdue action items
13:06 < MikeSmith> and deflect the attention toward all the other slackers who have overdue ones
13:10 < smedero> hahaha
13:10 * smedero glances over his shoulder... is safe from ACTIONS at the moment.
13:11 < smedero> (though I do have some ISSUES i'd like to add... got clear off my real-life job actions first.)
13:11 * smedero yawns
13:11 < smedero> coffee time
13:11 -!- matt [matt@128.30.52.30] has joined #html-wg
13:21 < Philip> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405584 - "our preferred browser made all the navigation Icons in out Oracle backed web applications break", hmm, they use <canvas> for that?
13:23 < Philip> I guess these people are all relying on Excanvas for IE, which is quite a scary thought
13:29 -!- gavin_ [gavin@99.227.30.12] has quit [Ping timeout]
13:40 -!- matt [matt@128.30.52.30] has quit [Quit: matt]
13:53 * Philip hopes IE would be able to implement <canvas> without breaking people who are assuming they'll always get Excanvas behaviour in IE
13:58 < zcorpan> should work fine with their versioning idea, no? :)
14:05 < DanC> MikeSmith, http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#item03 is missing an action on me to draft a liaison with microformats.org , yes?
14:05 < DanC> is the edited IRC log around?
14:06 < MikeSmith> reopen ACTION-5
14:06 * trackbot-ng attempting to re-open ACTION-5.
14:06 < trackbot-ng> ACTION-5 Make a proposal on the mailing list for the creation of a task force for developer community outreach re-opened
14:06 < DanC> does it grok "continue ACTION-5", i.e. set the due date to the date of the next meeting?
14:07 < DanC> trackbot-ng, help?
14:07 < DanC> :-/
14:07 < MikeSmith> DanC - no clue on what those minutes might be missing, but IRC log is in the usual place
14:07 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-irc.txt
14:08 < DanC> that log has any edits you made?
14:08 < MikeSmith> DanC - trackbot-ng don't grok continue afaik
14:08 < MikeSmith> one "close" and "reopen" verbs
14:08 < MikeSmith> I made no edits to the raw logs
14:08 < MikeSmith> only the generated minutes
14:08 < DanC> oh.
14:09 < DanC> ok
14:09 < DanC> where are you getting the list of verbs?
14:10 * MikeSmith looks for e-mail message from Dom
14:11 < MikeSmith> DanC - mail today on w3t-sys
14:11 < MikeSmith> you want the URL for archived version?
14:14 < DanC> no
14:15 < DanC> ACTION: Dan to draft a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with microformats.org regarding @rel values
14:15 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
14:15 < trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-27 - Draft a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with microformats.org regarding @rel values [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-12-06].
14:18 < DanC> did Sam Ruby review offline web apps?
14:20 -!- matt [matt@128.30.52.30] has joined #html-wg
14:22 < MikeSmith> DanC - not as far as I can remember
14:22 < DanC> I just reviewed public-html mail from Sam Ruby and I don't see it.
14:23 * MikeSmith just did the same
14:24 < MikeSmith> only 2 message from him since October, both replies to mjs " A bit of electioneering on the <canvas> charter issue " message
14:26 < MikeSmith> DanC - no agenda for today's call posted to list yet
14:29 < DanC> yes, there was
14:29 < DanC> Subject: HTML WG Teleconference 29 November
14:29 < DanC> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:47:27 -0800 (10:47 CST)
14:30 < DanC> it didn't go to -announce, and it doesn't have "agenda" in the subject; you can fix both of those if you like
14:31 < DanC> I think maybe our list of surveys should go in the nav bar on the WG homepage. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/
14:32 < DanC> odd... the tasks survey closed before the formal requirement survey. I think I fat-fingered the dates when I extended the survey
14:35 < DanC> ACTION: Dan to consult with the Hypertext CG and W3C management about how much time W3C member organizations should be allowed to study the patent implications of an HTML 5 spec 1st WD
14:35 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
14:35 < trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-28 - Consult with the Hypertext CG and W3C management about how much time W3C member organizations should be allowed to study the patent implications of an HTML 5 spec 1st WD [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-12-06].
14:37 < MikeSmith> DanC - I added a Surveys link on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
14:37 < DanC> cool
14:38 < MikeSmith> that page is currently in an unfinished state of re-mangling I started on it yesterday and put on the back burner
14:40 < DanC> I expect one of us will get an urge to re-mangle it every couple weeks.
14:40 < MikeSmith> I changed the heads to blue but olivier and karl then told me some cat named Jakob Nielsen who they seem to sort of worship and whose decrees they accept without question said that blue heads are forbidden
14:41 < MikeSmith> but well, I like blue
14:41 * DanC is a Nielsen fan too
14:41 < DanC> have you read Nielsen's argument?
14:41 < MikeSmith> I perused it
14:42 * DanC can't find it easily... http://useit.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmFind.exe?QUERY=blue+heading
14:42 < DanC> ah... "Never show text in your chosen link colors unless it's a link" -- http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040510.html
14:43 < MikeSmith> I can of wonder whether Neilsen hasn't drifted way off into Yeah, but what have you done for the Web lately? waters
14:43 < MikeSmith> yeah, that's the one I guess
14:43 < DanC> huh? http://www.useit.com/ shows no sign of reduced activity
14:43 < zcorpan> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9611.html ?
14:43 * zcorpan is slow
14:44 < MikeSmith> not that activity has reduced, just that relevance of it maybe has
14:44 < MikeSmith> dude does not have a monopoly on usability these days
14:44 < DanC> I prefer classics like the Chicago manual of style to avante guard like MTV (well, even that is old by now) when it comes to visual design.
14:45 < DanC> of course he doesn't have a monopoly; I'm interested to see other similarly well-studied opinions
14:45 < MikeSmith> Well I guess I kind of thing usability should not equal boring
14:45 * DanC supposes the Chicago manual of style has little to say about visual design... maybe more the New York Museum of Art book
14:46 < MikeSmith> I mean, look at the http://www.useit.com/ page design
14:46 < MikeSmith> not exactly engaging
14:46 < DanC> it's engaging to me.
14:46 < DanC> especially when I browse from my phone and other devices.
14:46 < DanC> noone (sane) argues for boring; he just argues not to sacrifice usability for glitz.
14:47 < DanC> if you can do usable _and_ glitzy, more power to you. but few can.
14:47 < MikeSmith> I wonder what kind of music he listens to
14:47 < Philip> Kool Keith, perhaps?
14:48 * DanC wonders what, if anything, a list apart has to say re "Never show text in your chosen link colors unless it's a link"
14:48 < DanC> I haven't read the authoring threads in public-html; are you following those, MikeSmith ?
14:49 < MikeSmith> Philip - I will pay you several gazillion dollars if you can confirm that he listens to Kool Keith
14:49 < MikeSmith> or if he even, say, knows who DJ QBert is
14:49 < MikeSmith> DanC - I read everything on public-html
14:50 < MikeSmith> though not always in linear fashion
14:50 < DanC> ok, then I trust you'll let me know when the authoring thread merits the attention of the chairs
14:50 < MikeSmith> and not every message in depth
14:51 < smedero> speaking of A List Apart... I've written for them before and they've asked me to write again. I'm kicking around two article ideas... one being closer to my day job (interface design issues) but the other was taken advantage of the forum and do a state of the union type piece on HTML 5. They seem eager to have something like that.
14:51 < MikeSmith> and I read public-html sometimes while listening to Kool Keith
14:51 < MikeSmith> which helps a lot
14:52 < MikeSmith> me an Philip have a plan to promote Kool Keith as a candidate for the new King of Web Standards
14:53 < MikeSmith> DanC - the authoring thread merits the attention of the chairs
14:53 < DanC> oh.
14:53 < smedero> which thread exactly? :)
14:53 < smedero> there are like four going at once according to GMail.
14:54 < DanC> how can the chairs help with the authoring thread? is there a critical mass of support building around something? is it a candidate for working draft? or note?
14:54 < DanC> I wonder if a series of blog articles might be better
14:56 < DanC> Ryan king has a point: "If we were to try and reduce these superficial differences, like
14:56 < DanC> single versus double quotes versus unquoted attributes, it comes at
14:56 < DanC> the cost of working on deeper differences, like parsing and DOM
14:56 < DanC> compatibility."
14:57 < MikeSmith> smedero - basically starting here:
14:57 < MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0354.html
14:57 < DanC> but the cost to the WG of a blog article is much lower; we don't need to develop consensus around it.
14:57 < smedero> MikeSmith: Alright, yeah that thread does have some proposals in it.. I think there is another from Doug Jones that pops-up later.
14:58 < DanC> MikeSmith? please elaborate on "the authoring thread merits the attention of the chairs"? in what way is the thread not taking care of itself?
15:00 < DanC> i gather there's a concrete proposal from Lachy ; I like to assign significant chunks of work to pairs. is Lachy working with anybody closely?
15:00 < Lachy> I'm not working closely with anyone in particular
15:01 < DanC> hi
15:01 * DanC catches up... "
15:01 < DanC> I think it would be best if the ultimate goal was to publish a W3C Note"
15:01 < MikeSmith> DanC - not sure what it means for a thread to be taking care of itself, but I guess I think any substantive discussions about potential deliverables merit the attention the chairs
15:02 < DanC> oh. let me re-set your expectations
15:02 < DanC> mostly the WG does the work without the chairs getting directly involved.
15:03 < DanC> the chairs only get involved when something turns the corner from the burden being on the proposers to develop support to the burden being on those who want something different to say specifically what changes they want
15:03 < DanC> s/only/mostly/
15:03 * DanC continues catching up... finds http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Guide/ ...
15:04 < MikeSmith> I guess I see a difference between the chairs getting involved and just paying attention to discussios
15:05 < DanC> well, I make it a point to pay attention about as much as I expect the average WG member to pay attention; i.e. I only read a little bit of the email
15:05 < Lachy> indeed. I don't think there's anything related to the guide that the chairs need to be involved with yet
15:05 * DanC wonders how the wiki guide relates to http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
15:06 < Lachy> DanC, I'm using the guide to allow more people to contribute since a wiki can manage many contributors much better than granting everyone CVS access
15:06 * DanC wrinkles nose at "1.1. Conventions" ; cf "book with user interface" by philg
15:06 < DanC> i.e. http://philip.greenspun.com/wtr/dead-trees/story
15:06 < Lachy> basically, things in the wiki are proposals which will eventually get revised and incorporated into the CVS version by me later on
15:07 < DanC> a link from http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Guide/ to http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/ seems in order. and vice versa
15:07 < DanC> this reminds me of the original HTML spec, back in 1991...
15:08 < Lachy> DanC, ok. I'll add that later
15:08 < Lachy> is the telcon still on in about an hour?
15:08 < DanC> hmm... I wonder where /p and /a and /title went... I thought they were under /MarkUp
15:08 < DanC> chris w. is chairing today; it's up to him... I suppose our bridge reservation is for a specific time...
15:09 < Lachy> ok
15:09 < DanC> bridge reservation is 90 minutes http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_2715
15:10 < DanC> oh... _in_ about an hour... I thought you were asking about duration
15:10 < DanC> 12:00pm-1:30pm/17:00-18:30 UTC
15:10 < DanC> that's 2 hours from now, unless I'm screwing up the calculations, again
15:11 < DanC> $ date -u
15:11 < DanC> Thu Nov 29 15:10:12 UTC 2007
15:11 * Philip 's GMT clock agrees with that
15:11 < MikeSmith> yeah, 2 hours
15:12 < MikeSmith> = 2am MikeSmith time
15:13 < MikeSmith> smedero - HTML5 piece published through List Apart would be great to see
15:13 < DanC> hmm... I guess they weren't separate pages, just sections on a page... http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Tags.html#4
15:14 < DanC> I went to An Event Apart in Chicago in August and talked with Jeff Z about a series of articles on HTML 5, but the idea hasn't gotten much steam since, AFAIK
15:16 < DanC> chuckle... "Much of the HTML actually around has been generated by the NeXTStep editor, which has in fact generated bad HTML. This should not confuse the specification. Some bugs in that output include non-matching open and close tags" -- http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Future.html
15:16 < DanC> I developed a patch for NCSA mosaic that was basically an XML parser. But I moved to Austin to get married and changed jobs and never sent the patch to NCSA. I often wonder how different the web would be if I had sent it back then.
15:16 < MikeSmith> wow... I didn't even know about http://www.w3.org/History/
15:18 < DanC> it seems that I did contribute the code to libwww... http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Connolly/MarkUp.html
15:18 < MikeSmith> DanC - somehow I suspect we still would have not found ourselves in a rosy wonderland
15:19 < DanC> when I get the kinks in my time machine worked out, I'll let you know. ;-)
15:19 < MikeSmith> btw, we are also working on cloning technology
15:19 < MikeSmith> to produce spec editors
15:20 < MikeSmith> and to do our homework for us
15:20 < Philip> Is that in our charter?
15:20 < MikeSmith> DanC - this /History stuff should be more prominently linked to from somewhere
15:20 < MikeSmith> from anywhere
15:21 < MikeSmith> how are people expected to find it?
15:21 < DanC> people aren't expected to find it.
15:21 < MikeSmith> ah
15:21 < DanC> people should find the specs on /TR/ and not get confused by archival stuff, mostly.
15:22 < DanC> but you should be able to find the W3C@10 stuff, which has a fairly polished view of history
15:22 < MikeSmith> well, I think there are a few crazy people who would like to read that stuff
15:22 < MikeSmith> and things like the circa 1991 www-talk archives
15:22 < DanC> yes, there's a web history cult. it's kinda bizzare, though. do you know about webhistory.org ?
15:22 < MikeSmith> yeah
15:22 < MikeSmith> sorta
15:23 < DanC> the guy came and interviewed a whole bunch of us on video and then never did anything with the material.
15:23 < DanC> it really pissed timbl off that he had to start over and do a book himself.
15:23 * DanC oops; did I just say that in public?
15:23 < MikeSmith> too late now
15:24 * DanC oh well
15:24 < MikeSmith> candor is encourage on #html-wg
15:24 -!- myakura [myakura@222.148.7.61] has joined #html-wg
15:24 < MikeSmith> anyway, my interests are not for cultic reasons but more out of "wonder what they were thinking back then" reasons
15:25 < DanC> speaking of web history and stuff that I'd like to convince the author to set free... does anybody know how to reach Ted Nelson? I have an HTML version of his "future of information" book based on plain text that he sent me, but we never finished the licensing negotiation
15:25 * DanC points MikeSmith at http://www.w3.org/Team/9706/nelson/
15:26 -!- Julian [chatzilla@217.91.35.233] has joined #html-wg
15:27 < MikeSmith> we should try to get Ted Nelson to comment on HTML5
15:27 < MikeSmith> to say anything at all about it, good or bad
15:27 < MikeSmith> Though I'm sure it would be bad
15:28 < MikeSmith> No idea how to get ahold of him
15:28 < MikeSmith> I think he's still working on Xanadu 2
15:28 < MikeSmith> or Xanadu 3 by now maybe
15:29 < MikeSmith> I like his term "hyperhell" a lot
15:29 < MikeSmith> .
15:30 * MikeSmith reads http://www.w3.org/Team/9706/nelson/nelson06.html#hyperhells-60 section
15:30 < MikeSmith> ted was way ahead of his time
15:30 < DanC> there's a lot of great stuff in that book, indeed.
15:30 < MikeSmith> even with the version numbers
15:30 < DanC> if only he weren't such a piss-ant
15:30 < MikeSmith> heh
15:31 < MikeSmith> yeah, that's it, in so many words
15:31 < DanC> of all the supreme arrogance: note not single citation to anybody else's work in the references section
15:32 < MikeSmith> hey, he's got "Andrew Pam, proposed definition of <TXT SRC> tag in HTML." as reference 5 in his bibliography
15:32 < MikeSmith> references 1-4 all being by somebody named T. Nelson
15:33 < Lachy> damn, 401 unauthorised! :-( Why is that restricted?
15:33 < DanC> Lachy, please take out "The Working Group intends to publish this document as a Working Group Note. " until the Working Group has actually said something like that.
15:33 < anne> Lachy, it is W3C Team-only
15:33 * anne has no idea why though
15:33 < DanC> it's restricted because Ted Nelson hasn't given me permission to 200 it
15:33 < Lachy> DanC, ok
15:33 < Lachy> I'll have to fix it later tonight
15:34 < DanC> hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson cites "The Future of Information" (1997) but doesn't give a link
15:34 < MikeSmith> amazing that that Ted Nelson wrote so elaborately about collaborative technologies but was not actually interested in collaborating with anybody
15:35 < DanC> MikeSmith, speaking of getting Ted Nelson to say something about HTML 5, I got him to say something about XML: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/w3j/s3.nelson.html XML.com: Embedded Markup Considered Harmful
15:35 < DanC> he's got impossibly high standards, just like timbl. the difference is that timbl is willing to tolerate less than his ideals.
15:36 < DanC> so timbl's web is everywhere, and xanadu is a footnote in wikipedia
15:36 < MikeSmith> DanC - that article from Ted doesn't actually mention XML
15:36 * DanC really should cut it out with the zingers
15:36 < MikeSmith> mentions SGML though
15:36 < Lachy> DanC, regarding the document licence issue raised here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0292.html - is it possible to use a special license for the guide that doesn't have the restrictions that the standard w3c licence has?
15:37 * MikeSmith notices that Ted lists "M.A. in Social Relations from Harvard" at the end
15:37 < MikeSmith> social relations..
15:37 < DanC> perhaps possible, but not straightforward, Lachy . again, that's one of the things that makes me think a series of blog articles might be better than a /TR/ when it comes to authoring guidelines for HTML 5
15:38 < DanC> there was an internal discussion of creative commons licenses for W3C tech reports; I don't recall the outcome; do you, MikeSmith ?
15:39 * DanC reads 0292...
15:39 < Lachy> maybe there's another solution, like mirroring it on whatwg.org with the whatwg licence, just like the spec.
15:39 < MikeSmith> DanC - i recall some discussion but I don't recall any resolution
15:40 -!- billmason [billmason@69.30.57.156] has joined #html-wg
15:40 * MikeSmith wanders off for a bit
15:40 < Lachy> DanC, btw, I'm writing an article for A List Apart at the moment. It will be published in the next issue
15:40 < DanC> cool
15:41 -!- MikeSmith is now known as TedNelson5
15:41 < DanC> mike, can I assign you an action to look into hsivonen 's suggestion to use a DSFG-happy license for HTML 5 authoring guidelines? his point that it's useful for validation tools is spot on.
15:42 < DanC> [well, of course I can assign such an action; the question is whether you accept it.]
15:42 * Lachy suggested MIT license, though I'd be happy with any similar non-copyleft permissive license
15:43 < Lachy> as long as it's GPL-compatible
15:43 * DanC looks for other W3C staff members aboot... wonders if Bert has his ears on
15:44 * Bert has a headset on...
15:45 < DanC> Bert, wanna take an action to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring, per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0292.html ?
15:45 < DanC> I'm sure your plate isn't full enough ;-)
15:46 < DanC> hmm... I don't think you're in the issue tracking task force. never mind
15:46 < anne> is Bert in the WG, even?
15:46 < DanC> I dunno
15:47 < Bert> I'm not in the WG, and action items are not things I like to have :-)
15:47 < anne> dbwg says no
15:47 < DanC> dbwg should know
15:47 < Bert> Looks difficult. Nedd to read back up
15:47 < DanC> anne, I'd be happy for you to take the action; you could get it done by bugging me and mike
15:47 -!- aaronlev [chatzilla@66.30.196.151] has joined #html-wg
15:48 * DanC considers "Anne van Kesteren has 0 actions" a bug ;-)
15:48 < anne> I can e-mail spec-prod I suppose
15:48 < anne> hah
15:48 < DanC> trackbot-ng, status
15:48 * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
15:49 < DanC> ACTION: Anne follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring, per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0292.html
15:49 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
15:49 < trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-29 - Follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring, per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0292.html [on Anne van Kesteren - due 2007-12-06].
15:49 < DanC> mailing me and mike with copy to spec-prod is a fine way to start
15:51 < Lachy> anne, can you CC me too so I can keep track of the issue
15:51 < anne> actually, I think I know the answer
15:51 < anne> oh no
15:51 < anne> XBL is not dual-licensed, but has a separate version with a different license
15:52 < Bert> If I understand correctly, you want a document that everybody can make derivative works of. In other words, a document that is udner the W3C software license instead of the document license. Seems perfectly doable to me.
15:52 < DanC> the right answer is probably a change to some W3C policies. this might take a while, but I think it's probably worthwhile
15:53 < Bert> (Pubrules will complain, but pubrules is just a piece of software.)
15:53 < Lachy> Bert, yes. It's the authoring guide and it would be useful if software, like validators and authoring tools, could include the information directly in their products
15:53 < DanC> yes, that's pretty much what we want, bert
15:53 < DanC> and pubrules is not just a piece of software; it's a bunch of policies
15:54 < Bert> Sure, what I mean is, don't let pubrules stop you from trying to get it accepted.
15:54 < DanC> right
15:54 -!- matt [matt@128.30.52.30] has quit [Quit: matt]
15:54 -!- matt [matt@128.30.52.30] has joined #html-wg
16:00 < anne> done: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2007OctDec/0006.html
16:03 < DanC> yup; I forwarded it internally.
16:04 * DanC re-assigned ACTION-29 to me, since anne can't really do the next step
16:06 < Lachy> anne, I wanted to avoid having my opera address on a public mailing list. Now I'm going to start getting spam :-(
16:07 < Philip> Lachy: That's easy to fix - just change your name and get assigned a new email address
16:08 < anne> Lachy, that should help in testing the Opera spam filter
16:09 * DanC grumbles that tracker doesn't make a link from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/12 to the minutes to give context
16:09 * DanC finds http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action12 ...
16:10 < Lachy> isn't the telcon supposed to have started?
16:10 < Lachy> where's Chris?
16:10 < DanC> again: telcon starts at 1700Z
16:10 < anne> he messed up the time in the e-mail I think
16:10 < DanC> see topic and chris's agenda msg and our zakim res
16:10 < DanC> phpht. chris fat-fingered it?
16:11 < anne> yes, it said 1600Z iirc
16:11 < anne> 16:00-00:00 UTC even :)
16:11 < Lachy> oh, right. I believed the email
16:11 < DanC> I wonder if 9am Pacific is 1700Z
16:12 < anne> no, 9 seems to be 1600
16:12 < anne> well, for PDT anyway
16:12 < DanC> Seattle Thu 9:00 AM
16:13 < DanC> Time is fixed on Thursday, November 29, 2007 at 17:00:00 UTC time
16:13 < smedero> Did you authorize ChrisWilson to use your time machine, DanC?
16:13 < DanC> -- http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=11&day=29&year=2007&hour=17&min=00&sec=0&p1=0
16:13 < DanC> <- http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#D20071129
16:13 < DanC> <- http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html <- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16
16:13 < anne> yeah, makes sense
16:13 < anne> they're in PST now
16:14 < anne> which has an 8 hour offset
16:19 -!- gsnedders [gsnedders@86.145.188.131] has joined #html-wg
16:22 -!- myakura [myakura@222.148.7.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
16:30 < DanC> oh... MikeSmith, the surveys link on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ is a little goofy; try to keep the TOC for this page separate from nearby stuff
16:30 < DanC> maybe I'll fix it
16:32 -!- TedNelson5 is now known as MikeSmith
16:32 < MikeSmith> DanC - if you have time to fix it they way you want please do
16:32 < MikeSmith> one thing I don't like that side bar
16:32 < MikeSmith> way too much text there
16:33 < anne> ooh, i18n comments on XHR
16:33 < MikeSmith> sidebar should just be for navigation, if there is a sidebar
16:33 < MikeSmith> anne - i18n comments from whom>
16:34 < anne> from the i18n group, of course :)
16:35 < Philip> I don't particularly like how the 'Membership and Participation' section has lots of inline links scattered through the paragraphs - it makes it really hard to find e.g. the link to the member list, since I have to read lots of irrelevant text before finding it
16:36 < anne> it seems like they're all from Addison Phillips
16:36 < Julian> many of these comments seem to confuse the XHR spec with the HTTP spec...
16:36 * anne always search "participants"
16:36 < anne> yeah
16:37 < DanC> I think the inline links are good for the 1st time reader, but I agree they should be repeated in more handy nav structures
16:37 < anne> although I wonder why we said that browsers should supply the Accept-Language header
16:37 < anne> I'm not sure that makes sense
16:37 -!- oedipus [oedipus@70.21.181.108] has joined #html-wg
16:37 -!- brianlandau [brianlanda@24.106.184.150] has joined #html-wg
16:37 < DanC> I *hate* pages that say "click the link in the upper right corner for our specials"
16:37 < DanC> when they could just say: See _our specials_.
16:38 < anne> maybe we can have a bookmarks page that lists all the things you want from the HTML WG
16:38 < anne> mailing lists, participant list, surveys, agenda
16:40 -!- hober [ted@68.107.112.172] has quit [Ping timeout]
16:40 < MikeSmith> I welcome anybody volunteering a redesign slash content improvements of that page
16:41 < MikeSmith> I think the <blink> and <reversevideo> tages are good for drawing attention stuff
16:41 < MikeSmith> and the <red> tag
16:41 * Philip guesses it would a bad idea to write the page in HTML5
16:41 < Philip> +be
16:41 -!- Sander [svl@86.87.68.167] has joined #html-wg
16:41 < oedipus> worse still, DanC, are those who say "click on the specials button at the top of the page" when they mean the graphically defined hyperlink
16:43 < oedipus> Mike(tm)Smith, what page are you referring to -- an internal wg resource? has anyone checked it for WCAG compliance (that would be a start)...
16:44 < MikeSmith> oedipus, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
16:45 < MikeSmith> I encourage those who know how to check for WCAG conformance to check such conformance of that page
16:45 < MikeSmith> Is there a WCAG conformance checker?
16:46 < oedipus> ok, i will and will ask that the drafters of WCAG2 take a pass at it -- that's why that working group exists -- to do inreach as well as outreach
16:46 < MikeSmith> hmm, inreach
16:47 < MikeSmith> not sure I like the sound of that
16:47 < MikeSmith> sounds too close for comfort, that
16:47 < oedipus> Mike(tm)Smith - not all WCAG checks can be automated -- for those that can and the wg developing them, check http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER
16:47 < MikeSmith> oedipus - OK
16:48 < oedipus> Shadi Abou-Zahra is still listed as chair and team contact: <shadi@w3.org>
16:48 < MikeSmith> hey, his name sounds familiar
16:48 < oedipus> i'm trying to find the ERT list of evaluation and repair tools -- and, there is also EARL
16:48 < oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Schema/ or http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10-Schema/
16:49 < oedipus> DanC has had positive experiences with EARL, i believe
16:49 < DanC> :)
16:49 < MikeSmith> I've seen presentations from Shadi on EARL
16:50 < DanC> most recently, I'm interested in mixing EARL with hReview, as discussed in the "story telling and test cases" session. http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-html-wg-minutes.html#item01
16:50 < oedipus> most likely, you have -- the list of ER tools is at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/ (haven't checked the "last modified" date)
16:50 * DanC wonders if my earlsum.py is in that list of tools...
16:51 < oedipus> DanC, i'll check (http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/advanced - search interface for tools)
16:51 < DanC> no match for "earlsum" on http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/complete
16:51 -!- hober [ted@68.107.112.172] has joined #html-wg
16:51 < DanC> nor "connolly"
16:51 < DanC> I have sent mail to ERT mailing lists about it
16:52 < oedipus> do you have a pointer to it? i'll bug the hell out of them (i'm told i'm good at that sort of thing...)
16:52 < MikeSmith> combination of the terms "inreach" and "schema" could be powerful means for extracting confessions during interrogation: If you don't tell us what we want to know, we will publish a normative inreach schema.
16:52 < DanC> phpht... the page mentions mailto:public-wai-ert-tools@w3.org but doesn't link the archive
16:53 < oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-er-tools yields a 404
16:53 < oedipus> oops forgot a t
16:53 < oedipus> DanC, the archive is located at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert-tools/
16:53 < DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2007Feb/0009.html
16:54 < oedipus> DanC, i'll follow up -- i'm trying to get all such loose ends tied together so that WAI can work more efficiently with other activities and WGs
16:54 < DanC> my tool is pretty geeky; not consumer technology
16:55 < oedipus> right now, the geeky tools are the most efficient (in my opinion, but then it's all geek to me)
16:55 -!- ChrisWilson [cwilso@131.107.0.105] has joined #html-wg
16:55 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, start meeting
16:55 * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
16:55 * trackbot-ng found 15 users
16:55 < trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
16:55 * trackbot-ng is starting a teleconference
16:55 -!- RRSAgent [rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30] has joined #html-wg
16:55 < RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-irc
16:55 < trackbot-ng> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:55 < RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot-ng
16:55 -!- Zakim [rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30] has joined #html-wg
16:55 < trackbot-ng> Zakim, this will be HTML
16:55 < Zakim> ok, trackbot-ng, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
16:55 < trackbot-ng> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
16:55 < trackbot-ng> Date: 29 November 2007
16:56 < DanC> Meeting: HTML WG Weekly
16:58 * oedipus says to DanC, the content of the ERT tools interface was last modified 17 march 2006 -- will follow up
16:58 < DanC> that interface is pretty intimdating. it should list at least a handful of tools on the cover page
16:58 < Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:58 < Zakim> -??P2
16:58 < Zakim> +??P2
16:58 < ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
16:58 < Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
16:59 < oedipus> it used to be a lot more user-friendly -- methinks i detect an unmaintained, unowned resource...
16:59 < Lachy> Zakim, pointer?
16:59 < Zakim> I don't understand your question, Lachy.
16:59 < Lachy> Zakim, passcode?
16:59 < Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
16:59 < Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
17:00 < DanC> darn; didn't get around to hacking on magic namespaces. :-/
17:00 < ChrisWilson> Zakim, agenda?
17:00 < Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
17:00 < DanC> let alone prep for TAG discussion of namespaceDocument-8 that immediately follows this telcon
17:00 < Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmiata
17:00 * MikeSmith doesn't know what voodoo code Zakim has assigned him
17:00 < ChrisWilson> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:00 < Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, ChrisWilson, +49.251.280.aaaa, Gregory_Rosmiata
17:00 < DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0405.html
17:01 < Zakim> +[LC]
17:01 < DanC> (that's the archival agenda; http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda is probably more useful during the meeting; see /topic)
17:01 < ChrisWilson> Zakim, 49.251.280.aaaa is Julian
17:01 < Zakim> sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named '49.251.280.aaaa'
17:01 < Zakim> + +047236aabb
17:01 < DanC> Zakim, aaaa is Julian
17:01 < Zakim> +Julian; got it
17:01 * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
17:01 * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
17:01 < Zakim> +DanC
17:01 < Lachy> Zakim, I am aabb
17:01 < Zakim> +Lachy; got it
17:01 < MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P2 is MikeSmith
17:01 < Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
17:01 < Zakim> -Lachy
17:02 < ChrisWilson> Still looking for a volunteer to scribe?
17:02 < DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:02 < Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Julian
17:02 < ChrisWilson> I'm chairing
17:02 < DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:02 < Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MikeSmith
17:02 < MikeSmith> heh
17:02 < DanC> Chair: ChrisWilson
17:02 < MikeSmith> figures
17:02 < MikeSmith> Zakim hates me
17:02 < MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
17:02 < MikeSmith> Scribe: MikeSmith
17:03 < Zakim> +Lachy
17:03 < oedipus> zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
17:03 < Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
17:03 < MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:03 < RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:03 < ChrisWilson> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:03 < Zakim> On the phone I see MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, [LC], DanC, +047236aacc
17:03 < oedipus> zakim, mute me
17:03 < Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:03 < oedipus> zakim, mute oedipus
17:03 < Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to oedipus
17:03 < oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
17:03 < Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
17:03 * Lachy will have difficulty typing and holding the phone, since he can't use his broken headset :-(
17:04 < MikeSmith> Topic: Open Action Items
17:04 * MikeSmith thinks Michael C is not on
17:05 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
17:05 < oedipus> GJR: notes that PF has invited simon pieters to join to expedite the process
17:05 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/8
17:06 -!- Lachy_ [Lachy@213.236.208.22] has joined #html-wg
17:06 < MikeSmith> "Discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute", on Michael Cooper
17:06 < DanC> I updated actions/8
17:06 < MikeSmith> keeping Action 8 open pending more talk with Michael Cooper
17:07 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/13
17:07 < MikeSmith> "Talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion", on chaals
17:07 < oedipus> last PF WG meeting (MC's action discussed) - member confidential archive: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/26-pf-minutes.html
17:08 < MikeSmith> ChrisW will bring up with HCG
17:08 < DanC> updated actions/13 reassigned to ChrisW, due 13 Dec
17:08 < MikeSmith> s/bring up/bring up Action 13/
17:08 < MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : what prompted this action?
17:08 < MikeSmith> DanC: yeah, Saturday f2f discussion about offline Web apps
17:09 < oedipus> zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
17:09 < Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
17:09 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23
17:09 < MikeSmith> "coordinate comparative tests using competing ARIA proposals"
17:09 < MikeSmith> oedipus - ran into problem with chair of PF group ...
17:09 < MikeSmith> ... they think it's an "undue burden"
17:09 * DanC hears an argument to withdraw the action... or maybe continue it...
17:09 < MikeSmith> ... there's a push to get it resolved ...
17:10 < MikeSmith> ... tomorrow morning there is a meeting with zcorpan (Simon Pieters) to discuss adoption of his ARIA proposal ...
17:10 < DanC> (meeting tomorrow? a pointer to mail from whoever is running that meeting would be handy)
17:10 < DanC> (er... are we talking about aria-role in substance here or just updating the action status?)
17:11 < MikeSmith> oedipus : OK to [declare] a role without declaring a namespace (they agreed to this compromise)
17:11 < DanC> agenda + ISSUE-14 aria-role
17:11 * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
17:11 < MikeSmith> oedipus : have been working with XHTML2 people ...
17:11 < zcorpan> DanC, http://www.w3.org/mid/p06110409c3749ffc266b@%5B192.168.1.102%5D
17:11 < MikeSmith> ... now need to broker with developers ...
17:12 < MikeSmith> oedipus : I can report back about this [after the meeting tomorrow]
17:12 < DanC> (which we agreed?)
17:12 < MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : DanC you noted that you wanted examples
17:12 < MikeSmith> DanC : yep
17:12 < DanC> (I got the pointers I needed.)
17:13 * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:13 * Zakim sees on the phone: MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, [LC], DanC, +047236aacc
17:13 < DanC> (3 meetings GR just mentioned... pointers please)
17:13 < MikeSmith> Zakim, aacc is Lachy
17:13 < Zakim> +Lachy; got it
17:13 < oedipus> friday 30 november 2007 - meeting with simon pieters http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2007OctDec/0257.html
17:14 * MikeSmith or maybe it's not Lachy
17:14 * Lachy Zakim already recognised me after I redialed, I don't think that's me
17:14 < MikeSmith> Zakim, aacc is not Lachy
17:14 < Zakim> I don't understand 'aacc is not Lachy', MikeSmith
17:14 < DanC> I marked ACTION-23 witdrawn
17:15 < MikeSmith> ACTION: Gregory to report back after 11-30 meeting on ARIA syntax
17:15 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
17:15 * RRSAgent records action 1
17:15 < trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-30 - Report back after 11-30 meeting on ARIA syntax [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2007-12-06].
17:15 < MikeSmith> DanC : W3C process requires 7-day notice for meetings
17:16 -!- zcorpan [zcorpan@88.131.66.80] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
17:16 < MikeSmith> oedipus : this is an attempt to work with the vendors who are supportive of ARIA
17:16 * anne thinks it's Lachy unless there's someone else calling in from NO
17:16 -!- zcorpan [zcorpan@88.131.66.80] has joined #html-wg
17:17 < DanC> q+ to note regrets for next week 6 Dec
17:17 * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
17:17 < Lachy> Zakim, mute me
17:17 < Zakim> Lachy should now be muted
17:17 < MikeSmith> [discussion of getting "PF ducks in a row" and "mutual reality check"
17:17 < oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
17:17 < Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
17:17 < DanC> ack danc
17:17 < Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note regrets for next week 6 Dec
17:17 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:17 < MikeSmith> DanC notes he won't be here next week; ChrisWilson will chair again
17:17 < DanC> next meeting: 6 Dec, Chris W to chair
17:18 < MikeSmith> [moving on to discussion of Pending Review AIs]
17:18 < MikeSmith> Topic: Issue 7, Video Codecs
17:19 < MikeSmith> s/Issue 7/Issue 4/
17:19 < DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0153.html [homework] summary of the video (and audio) codec discussion
17:19 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
17:19 < MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : this seems complete[d]
17:19 < MikeSmith> DanC will be at the Video Workshop
17:19 < MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0153.html
17:20 < MikeSmith> above is posting from Dave Singer
17:20 < DanC> ACTION: Dan see that Singer's summary makes it to the SJC/Dec W3C video workshop, possibly by confirming Singer's attendance
17:20 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
17:20 * RRSAgent records action 2
17:20 < trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-31 - See that Singer's summary makes it to the SJC/Dec W3C video workshop, possibly by confirming Singer's attendance [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-12-06].
17:20 * oedipus notes that dave singer has very fruitful morining with the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines WG at TPAC
17:21 < MikeSmith> Topic: ACTION 5, task force for developer community outreach (on Karl)
17:21 * DanC encourages MikeSmith to q+ re karl's authoring proposal
17:21 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/5
17:21 < MikeSmith> q+ to comment on Karl's proposal
17:21 * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
17:22 < Lachy> Zakim, unmute me
17:22 < Zakim> Lachy should no longer be muted
17:22 < smedero> fyi: Dave Singer's email was tacked on to the issue for video-codecs: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/7
17:23 < DanC> ack MikeSmith
17:23 < Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment on Karl's proposal
17:23 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:23 < DanC> ok by me, action done... now what next... a note and a wiki topic look OK to me
17:24 < DanC> q+ to note another idea: an edited series of blog articles
17:24 * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
17:24 < MikeSmith> Lachy - I'm trying to incorporate Karl's proposal into my draft ...
17:24 < MikeSmith> ... as well as stuff from Roger
17:25 < DanC> ok: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/5 Product HTML 5 authoring guidelines
17:26 < DanC> yeah, not a good name. Mike to fix
17:26 < DanC> (did lachy take an action)
17:26 < MikeSmith> ACTION: MikeSmith to change the product name of "HTML 5 authoring guidelines" in the tracker to sometthing else, eventually
17:26 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
17:26 < trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - MikeSmith
17:26 * RRSAgent records action 3
17:27 < MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to change the product name of "HTML 5 authoring guidelines" in the tracker to sometthing else, eventually
17:27 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
17:27 * RRSAgent records action 4
17:27 < trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-32 - Change the product name of \"HTML 5 authoring guidelines\" in the tracker to sometthing else, eventually [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-12-06].
17:27 < Lachy> DanC, what action would you like me to take?
17:27 < MikeSmith> Topic: canvas survey questions
17:27 < DanC> good question. maybe none, for now
17:27 < Lachy> ok
17:28 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/req-gapi-canvas/
17:28 * Lachy is happy to have an action to do nothing
17:28 < DanC> trackbot-ng, status
17:28 * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
17:29 < DanC> . ACTION: Lachy prepare web developer guide for publication as a Note
17:29 < DanC> yup, regular web pages or blogs are fine by me
17:30 < MikeSmith> Justin: [suggestion about considering blog items]
17:33 < MikeSmith> DanC - I consider the series-of-blog items to be a fairly definitive way of publishing this kind of information.
17:33 < DanC> s/definitive/comfortable/
17:34 -!- jgraham_ [james@81.86.218.70] has joined #html-wg
17:34 < DanC> ACTION: Lachy prepare web developer guide for publication as a Note
17:34 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
17:34 < trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Lachy
17:34 * RRSAgent records action 5
17:35 < DanC> ACTION: Lachy prepare web developer guide, maybe as a Note, maybe other
17:35 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
17:35 * RRSAgent records action 6
17:35 < trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Lachy
17:35 < DanC> (
17:35 < DanC> (Lachy, can I add you to the issue tracking task force? i.e. will you be in touch with the chairs regularly?)
17:36 < MikeSmith> Lachy : we want to be able to update the info after we publish it
17:36 < anne> That's possible with a Note
17:36 < ChrisWilson> (i.e. the content will change as the HTML5 spec changes)
17:36 < DanC> (I presume so...)
17:36 < anne> You just publish another one Note
17:36 < ChrisWilson> sure
17:36 < anne> s/one //
17:37 < MikeSmith> ... blogs are good for describing current state of things but not for things that need to be updated
17:37 < DanC> trackbot-ng, status
17:37 * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
17:38 < DanC> ACTION: ChrisWilson to investigate an HTML WG blog, a la the way the I18N WG does it
17:38 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
17:38 * RRSAgent records action 7
17:38 < trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-33 - Investigate an HTML WG blog, a la the way the I18N WG does it [on Chris Wilson - due 2007-12-06].
17:38 < DanC> due jan
17:40 < DanC> Zakim, who's making noise?
17:40 < Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MikeSmith (9%), ChrisWilson (9%), Lachy (13%), DanC (13%)
17:40 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
17:40 * trackbot-ng knows about the following 15 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
17:40 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reboot
17:40 < Lachy> Zakim, mute me
17:40 < Zakim> Lachy should now be muted
17:40 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
17:40 < trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
17:40 * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
17:40 * trackbot-ng found 16 users
17:40 < trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
17:40 < MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
17:40 * trackbot-ng knows about the following 16 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Lachlan, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
17:40 < ChrisWilson> Any interest in discussing any of the other open issues that have seen recent discussion?
17:40 < ChrisWilson> (or haven't seen recent discussion?)
17:40 < MikeSmith> DanC - yu can assign that issue to Lachlan now
17:40 < oedipus> GJR: would like a continuation on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/24 - i've noted in the tracker the steps taken so far, and am in the process of finalizing a tweaked stylesheet for review
17:41 < MikeSmith> s/Any interest/Topic: Other current issues being discussion on public-html/
17:42 < MikeSmith> [discussion of nonconformance of the style attribute in HTML]
17:42 < MikeSmith> s/HTML]/HTML5]/
17:42 < MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : how are we tracking follow-up and resolution on these issues?
17:43 < MikeSmith> DanC : there is a new testing task force?
17:43 < ChrisWilson> s /tracking/ensuring
17:43 < MikeSmith> q+ to talk about testsuite stuff
17:43 * Zakim sees DanC, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
17:43 < Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/
17:44 < Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2007Nov/0001.html
17:44 < ChrisWilson> q?
17:44 * Zakim sees DanC, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
17:44 < MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/26
17:44 < DanC> ack danc
17:44 < Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note another idea: an edited series of blog articles
17:44 * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
17:44 < MikeSmith> above is about testsuite stuff
17:44 < DanC> ack MikeSmith
17:44 < Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to talk about testsuite stuff
17:44 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:44 < MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-issue-tracking/2007Nov/0006.html
17:45 < DanC> ah... test suite product is already there... http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/4
17:46 * Lachy wonders what the new public-html-wg-issue-tracking list is for? Shoud I subscribe to that?
17:47 < ChrisWilson> Tracker watching public-html; the public-issue-tracking is for discussing how we do issue tracking.
17:47 < ChrisWilson> Above was DanC
17:48 < smedero> Lachy: it was primarily for discussion of issues with the Tracker software... and yes... what ChrisWilson said.
17:48 < Lachy> ok, so it's not something I need to subscribe to (I'm on too many lists already :-))
17:48 < ChrisWilson> I believe that is true, yes.
17:48 < ChrisWilson> I don't think I'm subscribed.
17:48 < smedero> We just didn't want to clutter public-html with noise on backoffice issues
17:48 < Julian> No, I didn't.
17:50 < MikeSmith> [discussion about mailing lists and interaction with tracker:
17:50 < ChrisWilson> Any other issues?
17:50 < ChrisWilson> Motion to adjourn?
17:50 < Lachy> bye
17:50 < Julian> c u
17:50 < Zakim> -Julian
17:50 < ChrisWilson> bye
17:50 < Zakim> -Lachy
17:50 < Zakim> -[LC]
17:50 < Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
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17:50 < MikeSmith> [no objections to adjourning heard]
17:50 < ChrisWilson> ADJOURN
17:50 < MikeSmith> cheers for meetings that don't go a full hour
17:51 < MikeSmith> Thanks ChrisWilson
17:51 < ChrisWilson> (DanC seconded)
17:51 < ChrisWilson> heh. Apparently I should chair more often. Don't tell Dan.
17:51 < Zakim> -MikeSmith
17:51 < DanC> tracker's agenda-building support is really working well
17:51 < MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:51 < RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:51 < Zakim> -ChrisWilson
17:52 < MikeSmith> DanC - yeah, thanks to systeam and to Dom in particular probably for the new features
17:53 * MikeSmith wanders off for a bit; will publish minutes later
17:53 -!- MikeSmith is now known as Crackbot
17:53 < DanC> you are charing more often, ChrisWilson . for which, thanks.
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17:55 < DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:55 < RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/29-html-wg-irc#T17-55-13
18:35 < Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()12:00PM
18:35 < Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
18:35 < Zakim> Attendees were ChrisWilson, +49.251.280.aaaa, [LC], +047236aabb, Julian, DanC, Lachy, MikeSmith, Gregory_Rosmaita
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19:56 < Hixie> DanC: ping (can i help with ACTION-28?)
19:59 -!- DanC changed the topic of #html-wg to: HTML WG meets Thu 29 Nov at 17:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: hihttp://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
19:59 < DanC> hi
20:00 < DanC> (my irc client just did something surprising. oh well.)
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20:01 < DanC> I started the internal discussion; one question that came back was: can we do a feature freeze while we're at it? I said: quite possibly, based on http://blog.whatwg.org/html5-snapshot
20:01 < DanC> do you want to hear about some of the possible dates after December 2007? speaking them into existence makes them more likely to happen
20:02 < Hixie> yeah, other than the rendering section, ruby, and the forms stuff, i'm not aware of anything that isn't in the pending feedback that really needs to be in 5.0
20:02 < Hixie> (maybe the namespace / math / svg stuff that has been proposed by sam and others)
20:02 < Hixie> (but i don't know that we have enough experience with that yet to put it in 5.0)
20:02 * DanC wonders if I should add 3 requirements issue on " rendering section, ruby, and the forms stuff" real quick... stands by...
20:03 < Hixie> rendering section = the default rendering of the existing features, it's just that they're defined in a separate section since it's all non-normative stuff
20:03 < Hixie> ruby = i18n semantics, just need to reverse engineer IE's implementation to add it
20:03 < DanC> right; the current draft says "rendering: TBD", IIRC
20:04 < Hixie> and the forms stuff is currently wf2, it's just waiting for the forms task force to come back to us with a conclusion
20:04 < DanC> I like to have all the stuff we're waiting for in the tracker somewhere
20:05 < Hixie> re other dates, i don't mind discussing dates, but what i really want is (as noted in mail 0423) a clear list of requirements and a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD
20:05 < DanC> re namespace/math/svg, I'm fairly optimistic, though I have been saying "maybe not html 5; maybe in the next version" but I also say "i.e. in 2 or 3 years"
20:06 < Hixie> i don't mind things getting added to the tracker :-)
20:06 < Hixie> ruby is hte only one of the three that doesn't have a placeholder in the spec, fwiw
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20:08 < DanC> I don't know if I can come up with a clear list of requirements on behalf of the whole WG, but the biggest issue seems to be the charter and canvas. IBM and Microsoft argue that the charter should be changed before canvas is published in an HTML WG WD.
20:08 < Hixie> and a much larger number of people argue otherwise... so...
20:08 < DanC> I'm encouraged by your support for the idea of splitting out the 2d graphics API.
20:08 < DanC> larger than the collection of IBM and Microsoft employees and customers? I haven't seen that.
20:08 < Lachy> DanC, I updated the status of the HTML guide per your previous request
20:08 < DanC> thanks, Lachy
20:09 < Hixie> DanC: wait, we're basing this on customer and employee counts?
20:09 < Hixie> (i think google probably has at least the same number of customers as microsoft)
20:09 < DanC> yes, I'm basing it on the position of IBM and Microsoft in the overall marketplace.
20:09 < Lachy> DanC, where can I find a template for the status section of a Last Call spec? I need it for selectors api
20:09 < DanC> and yes, Google is a force to be reckoned with
20:10 < DanC> Lachy, something like that should be near http://www.w3.org/2003/Editors/ .
20:10 < Hixie> well, this is a new technique for consensus forming, i wasn't aware of it before
20:10 < Hixie> but ok
20:10 < Lachy> thanks
20:11 < DanC> yes, first came ISO with 1-country-one-vote, then came IETF with one-mailbox-one-vote; W3C is something in between.
20:11 < Hixie> DanC: i think i would have to insist that we have a clear list of requirements and a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD, especially if we're going to be using new and undocumented ways of determining that 2 > 43
20:11 < DanC> W3C process tries to acknowledge the role of our members in the overall deployment landscape
20:11 < Hixie> DanC: otherwise it really does feel like, to use mjs' phrase, we are going into an "unbounded slip"
20:12 < Hixie> i certainly haven't seen that be done in the past, or be mentioned in the charter
20:12 < DanC> new and undocumented? this is all laid out in the W3C process document. there's nothing new about it.
20:12 < Hixie> (i feel my company's management would find such a policy anticompetitive, even given our position in the market)
20:12 < Hixie> where?
20:13 < Hixie> s/charter/process document/
20:13 < Hixie> i've read the process document many times and definitely don't remember anything about market positioning
20:13 < Hixie> is this new?
20:13 < DanC> things like "In the case (described in paragraph 5g of the Membership Agreement), where a Member organization is itself a consortium, user society, or otherwise has members or sponsors, the organization's paid staff and Advisory Committee representative exercise all the rights and privileges of W3C membership." -- http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/organization.html#Organization
20:14 < Hixie> right, that's actually saying that only the direct employees of member companies are w3c members
20:14 < DanC> and http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/organization.html#MemberRelated 2.1.2 Related Members
20:14 < Hixie> again, that's actually limiting the effect of large companies or groups to avoid exactly what you are proposing
20:15 < DanC> (more clearly: only direct employees of w3c member organizations are granted access to member-confidential materials.)
20:15 < Hixie> right
20:15 < Hixie> i nfact section 3.4 is explicit:
20:15 < gsnedders> "The Team must ensure that Member participation agreements remain Team-only and that no Member receives preferential treatment within W3C."
20:16 < Hixie> "each organization represented in the group MUST have at most one vote"
20:16 < Hixie> and "For the purposes of voting:
20:16 < Hixie> * A Member or group of related Members is considered a single organization."
20:16 < gsnedders> surely that implies that preferring a member like MS over a member with a smaller marketshare like Apple breaks the process?
20:16 < Hixie> certainly seems that way to me
20:16 < DanC> yes, but the number of votes is not terribly relevant
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20:17 < DanC> one vote from a market leader constitutes a strong argument
20:17 < gsnedders> DanC: but that's preferring that member
20:17 < gsnedders> DanC: which goes against what I quoted
20:17 < DanC> it's not preferring; it's acknowledging the role of that member in the deployment of web technology
20:17 < Hixie> DanC: ok, but in that case i think i would have to insist that we have a clear list of requirements and a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD, since otherwise i have no way of determining whether progress is being made, which makes it hard for me to defend my continued participation in the w3c with my management
20:17 < DanC> insisting on it won't magically create it.
20:18 < Hixie> indeed, i was hoping you might create it
20:18 < Hixie> since only you are able to do so
20:18 < gsnedders> DanC: under en-gb-oed "acknowledging the role of that member in the deployment of web technology" is most certainly preferring
20:18 < Hixie> i am willing to help as much as humanly possible
20:18 < DanC> the only listsI can think of set an unrealisitically high bar; e.g. yes votes from 80% of the participating W3C member orgs and no formal objections.
20:19 < DanC> it's not unfairly preferring
20:19 < Hixie> if the requirements are unrealistically high, that would be something i would like to know, rather than just have us fail to meet the goals without knowing what the goals are
20:19 < DanC> the goal is consensus
20:19 < gsnedders> DanC: the quote didn't say whether the preference was fair or unfair, just that there was a preference.
20:20 < Hixie> danc: as in, everyone in the working group agreeing or abstaining or not voting? or something else?
20:20 < DanC> yes, the W3C definition of consensus is "everyone in the working group agreeing or abstaining or not voting", plus lots of actual yes votes
20:21 < DanC> the goal is alwas consensus; sometimes we settle for less
20:21 < DanC> always
20:21 < Hixie> so all it would take to perpetually block the working group's work is for me to juts always vote no? that's certainly an interesting situation given the size of this working group. is that really what you are saying?
20:21 < DanC> no; noone has veto power
20:21 < Hixie> so when do we settle for less? is there some defined way you determine when we should proceed without consensus?
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20:22 < Hixie> truly, i just want to know what we need to do to publish the current spec as a FPWD, and when we can do so
20:22 < DanC> we settle for less at the chair's discretion, per our charter and W3C process.
20:22 < Hixie> ok, but the chair's discretion so far has seemed arbitrary and biased by a minority. as noted above, if this is to continue, i really think we need a clear list of requirements and a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD.
20:23 < DanC> I think Dec 2007 is a good goal, though I give it less than even odds. 6 months is too long. 3 months is what I think we can aim for and hit or beat. Q1 2008.
20:23 < Hixie> can we have that as a binding timetable in writing?
20:23 < DanC> maybe
20:23 < DanC> I haven't finished my internal discussion
20:24 < Hixie> any idea when that might happen? i don't mean to push, but it's been 8 months so far, so if 6 months is too long as you say, we've already delayed too long.
20:24 < mjs> did someone invoke my name in vain?
20:25 < DanC> my internal discussion should finish in 1 to 3 weeks
20:25 < DanC> I think you do mean to push, and I appreciate it. :)
20:25 < gsnedders> mjs: Hixie used your phrase, "unbounded slip"
20:26 < Hixie> DanC: ok, i don't mean to seem to be pushing unreasonably :-)
20:26 < gsnedders> mjs: (and references it as being yours)
20:26 < gsnedders> s/s/d/
20:26 < Hixie> DanC: so in 1 to 3 weeks we can get a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD?
20:27 < DanC> yes, I expect so.
20:27 < Hixie> ok
20:27 < Hixie> what should i do if you won't give a a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD in 3 weeks?
20:27 < mjs> DanC: if you're weighting members by financial considerations, could we use market capitalization?
20:27 < mjs> DanC: then I think google + apple + nokia outweighs microsoft + ibm
20:28 * DanC is conflicted... 2 interesting questions at once...
20:28 < DanC> recall the goup from the charter about x% of web pages as measured by N auditing orgs? I'm inclined to capture it along those lines in a requirements issue, mjs. something about # of web pages produced/consumed/affected/etc.
20:29 < Hixie> well by that measure google probably easily wins, since we publish every page in the google cache...
20:29 < DanC> i.e. something like "if the people who deploy 97% of the web agree, with regret that we couldn't make the rest of you happy, we're moving on"
20:30 < Hixie> (heck, google has its own line on the netcraft survey, it has so many sites)
20:30 < DanC> we'd factor in popularity somehow; i.e. page views
20:30 < mjs> I doubt we could ever get the people who deploy 90% of the web in the working group
20:30 < mjs> long tail and all
20:30 < DanC> ok, salt the numbers to taste
20:31 < Hixie> DanC: if i can possibly be so impolite as to ask again... what should i do if you won't give a a detailed and binding timetable for publication of the current spec as a FPWD in 3 weeks?
20:32 < DanC> if I don't deliver on ACTION-28 in 1 to 3 weeks, Hixie , you should expect a darned good explanation. And If I don't have one, you should feel justified in taking extreme measures.
20:32 < Hixie> ACTION-28 doesn't require you to come up with a binding timetable
20:33 < DanC> if I don't deliver on ACTION-28 in 1 to 3 weeks by coming up with a binding timetable, Hixie , you should expect a darned good explanation. And If I don't have one, you should feel justified in taking extreme measures.
20:33 < Hixie> ok
20:33 < Hixie> thank you
20:33 * Hixie marks his calendar
20:33 < DanC> likewise.
20:33 < mjs> I would also like to see a timetable or a specific checklist or both
20:34 < mjs> my experience in software is that slipping by a predefined amount is tolerable, but day for day slip is doom for the project and torture for everyone working on it
20:34 < DanC> indeed; the someday pile is no place to be
20:34 < DanC> did you see discussion of Dec/6 months/3 months/Q1 2008?
20:35 < DanC> replay: I think Dec 2007 is a good goal, though I give it less than even odds. 6 months is too long. 3 months is what I think we can aim for and hit or beat. Q1 2008.
20:36 < mjs> if we pick any of those dates and stick with it I would probably be satisfied
20:37 < Hixie> i could live with one of those dates as a date to publish the current spec as FPWD, if it is indeed binding
20:37 < Lachy> can someone record this decision in the tracker or on the mailing list or something
20:39 < DanC> you can, if you mail public-html with "ACTION-28" in the subject or body
20:39 < DanC> i.e. anyone can, yes
20:39 < Lachy> ok, will do.
20:39 < Lachy> I'll just copy the relevant parts of the IRC log
20:42 < Julian> for the record: I didn't see any "decision" here. Dan has promised he'll try to come up with a timetable, that's it. Or did I miss something?
20:42 < Lachy> Julian, that's what I was referring to
20:42 < DanC> dan has taken ACTION-28 and expects to complete it by coming up with a binding timetable
20:42 < Julian> ack
20:43 < DanC> by the way, mjs, I was royally pissed off when I read http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0414.html the 1st time. I'm sure glad I deleted my first few draft responses :)
20:44 < DanC> and I'm sure glad I had a dentist appointment so I couldn't sit and stew, and then I went to the gym and stuff.
20:45 < Hixie> you probably felt much like we did after reading the e-mail to which that was a reply :-)
20:45 < DanC> yes, I did provoke it to some extent...
20:45 < DanC> ... though really, I feel like I'm caught in the middle
20:45 < mjs> DanC: I was royally pissed while writing it, perhaps I didn't do a good enough job of toning it down
20:46 < DanC> I'm trying to make both/all sides happy, and I'm getting zinged from all sides. But today I'm back to feeling pretty happy that we're all doing our level best.
20:47 < DanC> which reminds me of some suggestions in mail from mjs that I'd like to think about more carefully...
20:51 < DanC> mjs, re other organizations, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0427.html has a/the list
20:52 * DanC noodles on whether 3 months is enough time to change the chater, if it comes to that... yes... it is.
20:56 < Dashiva> Just because it might be enough doesn't mean it's going to be enough in practice, though...
20:57 * Dashiva was reading through mail backlog and found "While consensus is always a goal, it is not required for publication" by DanC, talking about the HDP.
20:57 < Dashiva> Strange coincidence :)
20:58 < DanC> I have a lot of control over how long it takes. the formal process is a 4 week review by the W3C membership, preceeded by an unbounded amount of staff discussion (that I'm confident I can keep to 3 weeks) followed by time for The Director to consider the membership reviews (which is traditionally 2 weeks and which I think I can keep to 3)
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21:29 * DanC sent mail to process-issues about whether the process document is clear enough about taking market/community position into consideration
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22:51 < anne> told the forms tf that the charter review period is over
22:53 < Dashiva> Does that mean you'll start work now?
22:54 < anne> we're accepting input now
22:54 < anne> I don't personally have a proposal
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23:51 < anne> could people from the html5lib team please read the first "I" in the e-mail I just sent as "We"
23:51 < anne> (plus other appropriate fixup :) )
23:54 < anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2007Nov/0048.html seems relevant to us
23:54 * anne hasn't read the references yet
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--- Day changed Fri Nov 30 2007
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00:21 * jgraham_ is sceptical that the supposed large group of people that would benefit from a markup-language-only spec without DOM, error-handling, etc. actually exists.
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00:29 < mjs> jgraham_: haven't you seen that the current trend on the web is to have pure markup only and completely ignore scripting, behavior and rendering?
00:29 < mjs> I think the kids call it "web 2.0" or "ajax" or something
00:29 < mjs> or did I get that backwards?
00:30 < jgraham_> :)
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03:13 < MikeSmith> ACTION: Lachlan to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some was, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference
03:13 * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
03:13 * RRSAgent records action 8
03:13 < trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-34 - Prepare \"Web Developer's Guide to HTML5\" for publication in some was, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference [on Lachlan Hunt - due 2007-12-07].
03:14 < MikeSmith> Lachy - that was the action DanC meant to assign to you on the telcon but couldn't because you weren't in the tracker DB yet
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12:41 < anne> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/11/29/HTML5-needs-a-CarterPhone
12:41 * anne just replied
12:49 * anne wonders if his replies to Roy were sufficient or if Roy's taking a break from replying
12:49 < mjs> interesting that Sam effectively portrays Microsoft and IBM as downtrodden innocents being steamrolled by insider interests
12:49 < mjs> when in fact they are the minority objectors trying to override most of the rest of the group
12:51 < mjs> I also wonder why he picked that URL for "rules"
12:52 < anne> if they actually helped instead of playing armchair general I might have more sympathy for their position
12:52 < Dashiva> So a "radically open standards process", does that mean he's opposed to non-public vetos of publication?
12:53 < anne> mjs, because you extended HTML in a way that you later had to revert
12:53 < anne> I think
12:54 < mjs> we did?
12:54 < Lachy> I'm totallyy confused about his statment that the HTMLWG needs a "CaterPhone". I have no idea what that is or what he means by it
12:54 < mjs> Lachy: he means extensibility outside the authorized system
12:54 < Lachy> oh
12:54 < anne> mjs, Apple made <canvas> a void element and later it became a container element
12:55 < anne> I guess this suggests that there are no clear rules for inventing new elements
12:55 < mjs> anne: we certainly learned our lesson from that
12:55 < mjs> which is to try to go to standards bodies as early as possible
12:55 < mjs> and get testing and peer review on new features before shipping them in a final product
12:55 < anne> yeah, that seems to be me like the solution as well
12:56 < mjs> you may have noticed we spent a lot of time working on <video> in the context of the HTML5 spec before publishing even an experimental implementation
12:57 < anne> yup
13:09 < mjs> I replied too
13:13 < anne> cool
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13:29 < shepazu> hey, in SVG, you can include a raster image inline by using base64 encoding... can you do that in HTML's <img>?
13:29 < mjs> with data: URLs you can
13:29 < mjs> (not in IE)
13:30 < shepazu> ok, cool
13:30 < mjs> does svg have a way besides data: URLs?
13:30 < shepazu> no no
13:30 < shepazu> that's what I meant
13:31 < zcorpan> i think you can put data urls anywhere URIs are accepted
13:31 < mjs> well, in browsers that support them you can
13:31 < shepazu> I need to read up on that
13:31 < mjs> which is basically not-IE
13:31 < zcorpan> yeah
13:31 < shepazu> thanks, guys
14:09 < anne> ah, the video SHOULD clause has been mentioned
14:12 < anne> http://htmlpurifier.org/ is laso implementing HTML5 parsing
14:14 < zcorpan> anne: don't they use ph5p?
14:16 < mjs> this is entertaining (though something off-topic): http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/11/30/internet-explorer-doesnt-just-suck-it-also-blows/
14:16 < mjs> *somewhat
14:18 < anne> zcorpan, dunno
14:18 < anne> the title is funny
14:18 < anne> URI title I mean
14:19 * Philip wonders if Opera is going to fix its non-support of canvas fallback content
14:19 < Philip> (...unless that was already fixed in a recent beta or something)
14:21 < anne> I think that if you disable JavaScript we show <canvas> fallback but I don't think that parsing of <canvas> has been fixed at all
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14:48 < smedero> Lachy: anne mentions you might be working on a HTML 5 for authors article for a web publication. I've been working on something similar for the A List Apart folks - I'm only in the outlining stage though.
14:48 < smedero> just don't want to duplicate efforts.
14:50 < Lachy> smedero, mine will be published on monday
14:50 < Lachy> on ALA
14:51 < smedero> ha
14:51 < smedero> I asked them if they had something in the pipeline
14:51 < smedero> and they said no
14:51 < smedero> heh
14:51 < smedero> alright
14:51 < anne> they want more :)
14:51 < Lachy> when did you ask?
14:51 < smedero> like a week ago
14:51 < Lachy> lol
14:51 < smedero> I've always worked with Krista Stevens...
14:52 < smedero> (well later others... but for topic selection, Krista has been my point person.)
14:52 < smedero> That's cool, I'll take a different angle than yours
14:52 < smedero> or just select another topic all together.
14:52 < Lachy> if you were hanging out in IRC a few days ago, you would have seen some discussion of it and got a sneak peek
14:52 < smedero> Yeah, I've had a crazy week and couldn't be here as often... I'll dig up the logs though.
14:52 < smedero> Thanks!
14:53 < Lachy> remember, the spec is huge and my article only covers a small fraction of it. So there's plenty of stuff that needs writing about
14:54 < smedero> Yep.
14:55 < smedero> It is totally cool... I just wanted to make sure I'm not writing the *same* thing.
14:55 < smedero> I've written for ALA in the past and thought I should take advantage of their offer to write again to do a little PR for the spec.
14:56 < smedero> the more the better.
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15:08 < MikeSmith> the more the better indeed
15:08 < MikeSmith> more choices, not less
15:08 < MikeSmith> mo
15:08 < MikeSmith> as in もっと
15:12 < Dashiva> As in Judy & Mary
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15:25 < anne> Hixie created http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications
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15:49 < anne> can anybody tell me what karl is trying to say?
15:49 < anne> i mean, I knew he was working on that document, I heard that elsewhere
15:50 < anne> but what exactly was his initial point if he's ok with what Lachlan is doing?!
15:55 < anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2007Nov/0054.html "The only exception to this rule is of course if you're for instance the CDF WG or the TAG, in which case you should regularly threaten to solve other people's issues so that, in awed fear that you might actually do it, they get to work."
15:55 < anne> :)
16:04 < anne> http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=815
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16:27 < anne> Julian, yes, it's hard to see
16:35 < anne> zcorpan, nice find, I looked for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0096.html yesterday but couldn't find it
16:37 < zcorpan> anne: http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alists.w3.org+circle+depends+parsing+scripting+navigation+hickson :)
16:38 * anne just did a similar trick to locate http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0003/offset-mess.htm
16:38 < Dashiva> Why didn't you use the Semantic Web to magically answer your question?
16:38 < anne> my brain failed to connect
16:44 < MikeSmith> mock on, mock on, Voltaire, Rousseau
16:48 < Dashiva> Poetic
16:56 < anne> fun
16:56 < anne> we really do get to rehash each and every thingie again and again and again
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16:57 < anne> besides spec splitting we now have the question why <canvas> can't be called <span>
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16:59 < zcorpan> at least it's a good thing we have archives
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17:03 < Philip> <canvas> has to be called <canvas> for 'support existing content'
17:03 < Philip> though there's not much stopping the canvas API being implemented on other elements too
17:03 < Philip> (except for it being redundant functionality, and implementors presumably not liking it)
17:03 < anne> implementors will stop that :)
17:04 < anne> overloading elements is not good practice
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17:10 < MikeSmith> ChrisWilson - you there?
17:30 * Philip sees http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/30/1415235
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18:39 * anne doens't get http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0109.html
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20:36 < anne> Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#parser-appcache has an error in that it talks about an "application" attribute on "html" instead of a "manifest" attribute on "html"
20:38 < Hixie> anne: the comp spec page was cos i keep forgetting what specs we need editors for. feel free to add to it.
20:38 < Hixie> yeah, i think someone reported that already
20:39 < anne> ok
20:40 < anne> i'm still working on some parts of the CSSOM btw
20:41 < anne> such as getClientRects(), offsetHeight, etc.
20:42 < Hixie> yeah, the bottom few on the list are ones with part-time editors
20:44 < anne> I know not everyone favors the approach but I splitted out the DOM Level 0 stuff out of CSSOM and am working on making that a ready draft called CSSOM View Module
20:45 < anne> I'm not really interested in working on .style.width.px and friends and given that CSS gains animation support it seems less necessary anyway
20:45 < Hixie> valid
20:47 < anne> Having said that, we do still get numerous serialization bugs (for .style and such) and getComputedStyle issues but I hadn't figured thosee out yet anyway
20:48 < anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0111.html
20:49 < Hixie> wish my mail was still working
20:49 < Hixie> getting mail in dribs and drabs is annoying
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20:51 < anne> guess IBM and MS will both object to numerous features for whatever reason
20:53 < anne> I think we can still try Web DOM4 Events or something like that btw that doesn't have NS methods
20:53 < anne> as far as I can tell nobody implements them
20:54 < anne> apart from some specifications
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21:24 < anne> I created http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/OpenIssues to track the large remaining items
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21:35 < Philip> What would happen if someone had a protocol named "MUST", and wanted to write an RFC for it?
21:39 < Dashiva> Make a lawyer alias
21:41 < anne> What if your protocol is named "RFC 2119"?
21:50 < Philip> Naming a protcol "RFC 2119" would just be silly :-p
21:50 < Philip> s//o/
21:52 < anne> It's a request for comments protocol that will be finished in 2119. What's the story with "MUST"?
21:52 < Philip> It's a MUlticast Streaming Transport, perhaps
21:53 < Philip> I wonder if that RFC 2119 protocol will be deployed before IPv6
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21:54 < anne> someone suggested to me that we should work on ipv5 and tcp5
21:56 < Philip> BGP5 too
21:57 < Philip> (That's actually sort of the area I'm working in now)
21:58 < anne> Wikipedia claims version 4 is already much closer to industry practices
22:00 < Philip> As far as I'm aware (which isn't very far) that's probably true, so it doesn't need something equivalent to HTML5
22:04 < Philip> (Apparently the problem is that it's simply broken - e.g. it chooses bad routes between two addresses when a better route exists, which is kind of defeating the whole purpose of a routing algorithm - and it's too complex for anyone to analyse the correctness of a network)
22:04 < Philip> (or something like that, anyway)
22:25 < Philip> http://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/index.php/2007/11/30/firefox-20011-stability-update-now-available-for-download/ - now with happier canvas
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22:57 < anne> Philip, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/SVG_and_canvas
22:57 < anne> I also made http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._SMIL_video and I quoted mjs in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/SVG_and_(X)HTML
22:58 * anne hopes he loses wiki pages less than pointers to e-mails
22:58 * Hixie sighs at public-html
23:01 < anne> yeah, I'm trying to figure out what exactly the issue is
23:02 < anne> but maybe it's what markp said: "There’s something about the W3C that makes people go all crazy.
23:02 < anne> -- http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=815
23:03 < Dashiva> The ghost of patents pending
23:04 < anne> some of the threads are not about that, they're just about people repeatedly asking the same question
23:04 < anne> maybe getting the wrong answers or so, dunno
23:06 < Hixie> there seem to be three or four different "issues"
23:06 < Hixie> there's the group trying to delay at all costs, and the group trying to publish at all costs
23:06 < Hixie> there's the group that thinks the spec is too big, and the group that thinks the spec needs to be big
23:08 < Hixie> there's the group that thinks the spec doesn't cater to their pet target audience, and the groups that are (a) trying to fix this, (b) saying the spec _does_ cover that group's needs, and (c) say the problem will be fixed in due course
23:09 < Hixie> and then there's the group of people who have a pet issue that they think needs resolving sooner than any other issue
23:09 < Hixie> and who get upset when their issue is treated with the same level of priority as all the other issues
23:10 < Hixie> part of the overall problem seems to be that these groups overlap greatly, and that people from groups in different pairs argue against each other (and thus argue at cross-purposes)
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23:12 * jgraham_ always wonders if he would have been better off not bothering after posting to public-html
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23:13 < Hixie> well right now i have a surprising advantage -- i'm not getting my public-html mail, so i can't reply :-)
23:13 < hober> heh
23:16 < Dashiva> I'm in the "waiting for my issue to come up, in the silent hope that nobody will start arguing about it, causing it to be trautmatized" camp
23:20 < anne> hmm, Sam Ruby would be surprised if nobody stepped forward to work on a 3D <canvas> spec
23:21 < Hixie> i've been hoping someone would work on that for about 2 years now
23:21 < anne> a decent specification for offsetHeight has also been lacking since IE5 and the rest reverse engineered it
23:22 * anne tries to fix that with http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ although it's not perfect (doesn't stall script execution yet to do layout first and crap like that)
23:23 < anne> there are so many examples that show that proper specifications are not being made that I wonder what he's basing that statement on
23:26 < Hixie> hope?
23:40 < Dashiva> Maybe it's different inside IBM
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